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And when Communists took power in Vietnam then exactly what was expected to happen happened - a large scale human tragedy with mass killings and torture and mas

by genman 3y ago

And when Communists took power in Vietnam then exactly what was expected to happen happened - a large scale human tragedy with mass killings and torture and mass exodus. Saddam Hussein was a mass murderer who had murdered around 400 000 people - half of them after US refused to take him down after the Gulf War. Any excuse to get him removed was a good one.

hef19898 3y ago
The right time to take down Saddam was after the secind gulf war, the first one with US participation. In the first gulf war between Iraq and Iran, Iraq was an US ally. And no, removing Saddam with good reason was a really bad idea... To cut it short, in the frame on the war on terror 4.5 million people died, almost a million directly related to the war and 38 million people displaced. If you think all that was a just price to pay to get Saddam and Bin-Laden, because the Taliban pretty much won, you should re-adjust your moral compass.
- genman 3y ago
  Why should I readjust my moral compass? Because people could not forget their feuds and started to kill? The system held together by terror was pushed out of equilibrium. They had a change to find a better one but they chose not to. If anything then US has done not enough by letting sociopaths in Syria and Iran still run the show - a huge part of the deaths (I'm not going to dispute your claimed numbers) could have been averted and not only in Middle East.
  - cf1241290841 3y ago
    Interesting >could have Do you have a rule of thumb how many deaths you are willing to accept and risk on what probabilities for which futures? Also, you used the term sociopaths, do you consider yourself a psychopath?
    - genman 3y ago
      It is clear now that Syrian leader was willing to murder hundreds of thousands of people, so were Iranian leaders. Moving against them early "could have" avoided large part of the Middle East casualties.
      - cf1241290841 3y ago
        What perspective other then ideology has this not apply to your own position? You seemed pretty comfortable in your position despite the number of people killed and outcome counter to your declared intention.
        genman 3y ago
        Your personal attacks are lame. I based my argument based on reduction of human suffering. Now please, buzz off.
        cf1241290841 3y ago
        I am sorry that you took it that way, it wasnt intended as such. I responded out of curiosity. edit: Thank you for your response none the less.
acqq 3y ago
You probably don't want to know: https://pulitzercenter.org/stories/how-us-secret-war-laos-still-happening-today https://pulitzercenter.org/stories/how-us-secret-war-laos-st... "From 1964 to 1973, the United States bombed Laos more heavily than any country on earth. The reason most Americans do not know this is because it was a secret war orchestrated by the CIA; it stands as the largest covert CIA operation to date." "One team can find anywhere from three to 16 bombs in a day. The UXO Lao’s 2015 annual report states that since 1996, 1.4 million UXO have been cleared in Laos by a combined effort of UXO Lao and other UXO-clearing organizations, like MAG International. At this rate, it will take thousands of years before Laos is free of UXO." "Forty percent of UXO victims are children who pick up the bombs, usually thinking they are toys." The US cluster bombs. Now also in Ukraine: https://edition.cnn.com/2023/07/20/politics/ukraine-cluster-munitions/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2023/07/20/politics/ukraine-cluster-...
- genman 3y ago
  Is this some "Kissinger bad" propaganda take? US didn't bomb Laos, it bombed Vietnamese Communists covertly operating in and from Laos against Republic of Vietnam and US. The reason that it was a covert war was geopolitical - every actor there operated covertly. In my country we still find ordnance from WW2 or even WW1. I even had some close encounters. It looks like some early training of children can save lives. What I can read from https://laos.worlded.org/projects/uxo-education-and-awareness/ https://laos.worlded.org/projects/uxo-education-and-awarenes... is that the education is mainly addressed toward primary school children meaning that the children below the age of 6 will not receive any education (from the program, perhaps there are other programs). What is completely lacking is education of parents. Now what about cluster bombs in Ukraine? These have been proven to be highly effective against Russian attacks. If we talk about future safety concerns then Russian forces have laid mines over vast areas. The density can be as much as 5 mines per square meter and I doubt that they will share the mining maps when this eventually ends (if they even have systematic maps). Already the area affected by the destruction of the Kakhovka Dam by Russians has mines randomly scattered all over the area because of massive flooding. Ukraine is keeping track of its cluster munition usage and the low percentage of unexploded munitions is a mere drop against the mayhem Russia has created. Keep in mind that Russia has very clearly declared its genocidal goals.

by genman 3y ago

hef19898 3y ago

The right time to take down Saddam was after the secind gulf war, the first one with US participation. In the first gulf war between Iraq and Iran, Iraq was an US ally. And no, removing Saddam with good reason was a really bad idea... To cut it short, in the frame on the war on terror 4.5 million people died, almost a million directly related to the war and 38 million people displaced. If you think all that was a just price to pay to get Saddam and Bin-Laden, because the Taliban pretty much won, you should re-adjust your moral compass.

genman 3y ago
Why should I readjust my moral compass? Because people could not forget their feuds and started to kill? The system held together by terror was pushed out of equilibrium. They had a change to find a better one but they chose not to. If anything then US has done not enough by letting sociopaths in Syria and Iran still run the show - a huge part of the deaths (I'm not going to dispute your claimed numbers) could have been averted and not only in Middle East.
- cf1241290841 3y ago
  Interesting >could have Do you have a rule of thumb how many deaths you are willing to accept and risk on what probabilities for which futures? Also, you used the term sociopaths, do you consider yourself a psychopath?
  - genman 3y ago
    It is clear now that Syrian leader was willing to murder hundreds of thousands of people, so were Iranian leaders. Moving against them early "could have" avoided large part of the Middle East casualties.
    - cf1241290841 3y ago
      What perspective other then ideology has this not apply to your own position? You seemed pretty comfortable in your position despite the number of people killed and outcome counter to your declared intention.
      - genman 3y ago
        Your personal attacks are lame. I based my argument based on reduction of human suffering. Now please, buzz off.
        cf1241290841 3y ago
        I am sorry that you took it that way, it wasnt intended as such. I responded out of curiosity. edit: Thank you for your response none the less.

acqq 3y ago

You probably don't want to know: https://pulitzercenter.org/stories/how-us-secret-war-laos-still-happening-today https://pulitzercenter.org/stories/how-us-secret-war-laos-st... "From 1964 to 1973, the United States bombed Laos more heavily than any country on earth. The reason most Americans do not know this is because it was a secret war orchestrated by the CIA; it stands as the largest covert CIA operation to date." "One team can find anywhere from three to 16 bombs in a day. The UXO Lao’s 2015 annual report states that since 1996, 1.4 million UXO have been cleared in Laos by a combined effort of UXO Lao and other UXO-clearing organizations, like MAG International. At this rate, it will take thousands of years before Laos is free of UXO." "Forty percent of UXO victims are children who pick up the bombs, usually thinking they are toys." The US cluster bombs. Now also in Ukraine: https://edition.cnn.com/2023/07/20/politics/ukraine-cluster-munitions/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2023/07/20/politics/ukraine-cluster-...

genman 3y ago
Is this some "Kissinger bad" propaganda take? US didn't bomb Laos, it bombed Vietnamese Communists covertly operating in and from Laos against Republic of Vietnam and US. The reason that it was a covert war was geopolitical - every actor there operated covertly. In my country we still find ordnance from WW2 or even WW1. I even had some close encounters. It looks like some early training of children can save lives. What I can read from https://laos.worlded.org/projects/uxo-education-and-awareness/ https://laos.worlded.org/projects/uxo-education-and-awarenes... is that the education is mainly addressed toward primary school children meaning that the children below the age of 6 will not receive any education (from the program, perhaps there are other programs). What is completely lacking is education of parents. Now what about cluster bombs in Ukraine? These have been proven to be highly effective against Russian attacks. If we talk about future safety concerns then Russian forces have laid mines over vast areas. The density can be as much as 5 mines per square meter and I doubt that they will share the mining maps when this eventually ends (if they even have systematic maps). Already the area affected by the destruction of the Kakhovka Dam by Russians has mines randomly scattered all over the area because of massive flooding. Ukraine is keeping track of its cluster munition usage and the low percentage of unexploded munitions is a mere drop against the mayhem Russia has created. Keep in mind that Russia has very clearly declared its genocidal goals.