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Hi, I'm a former Federal LEO that has gotten warrentless access to medical records - a long time ago. I can't speak for every agency (there are more than 100 F

by levinb 3y ago

Hi, I'm a former Federal LEO that has gotten warrentless access to medical records - a long time ago. I can't speak for every agency (there are more than 100 Federal agencies with sworn officers and arrest authority, and thousands of state and local agencies), but the few times I did this in the early 2000s, even most of the HN crowd would have thought it reasonable. I was an officer in the Coast Guard and had LE powers under two different branches of law - one public safety and one criminal. When Bad Things happened on federal waterways, my job was to first investigate threats to public safety. This comes with the power to issue a subpoena. This means we can 'compel speech' and then if you lie to us, you are in trouble. This has more to do with what you might think the NTSB or FAA might do following an accident. The government has the right under current law to understand threats to the public. If a shipping company is currently doing something that could dump a barge full of Xylene into the bayou next to an elementary school (this is not a made up scenario, and you should look up Xylene) then there is a public interest compelling enough that we can tell people they have to sit down and tell us the truth, and the 4th amendment is not a barrier. However, if a public safety investigation moves past 'understanding if something is a risk to the public', and individual criminal culpability appears possible, we are then required to disclose to the individuals involved that we have moved to a criminal investigation. In this case, the 4th comes back in play and warrants are required. For me, this really only came up a couple times with individuals involved in an accident that were either using medical prescriptions ("I missed my medications, I'm not drunk") to delay us investigating a scene. Or, for a couple of injured mariners who were in the hospital at the time we showed up. We needed to go to the hospital get their version of the story and to confirm an injury; grave injuries would increase the 'level' and thus mandatory resources involved in an investigation. Also, we would need to get a witness testimony from a deckhand or something that was on a boat or facility and saw what happened (did the boat really slam into the terminal coupling or did the guy just mess up attaching it because he wasn't an officially trained Tankerman who shouldn't have been operating the equipment). Being in the hospital or at the doctors was an excuse used more than once my companies trying to slow down inquiry into their mistakes. And yes, I think for our use case, it was completely reasonable for us to be able to call the hospital and ask "was so and so admitted last night?", just for us to find out that they were not, and went back home to mom's house to hide under orders from their captain. Anyway, with all that said, it seems unlikely these powers are not frequently abused, even if most of the LEO community is just trying to do their job. So, tin-hat away, friends.

chimeracoder 3y ago
As someone who also has a lot of experience in this area, I'll say that your comment is a classic example of the tactics that that LEOs use to minimize or defend abuses of power. It's actually a great case study, because it exemplifies the way that abuses of power are adopted structurally at an institutional level, while also drawing the line to how that is internalized and effected in practice by individuals. (This process is a key component of any stable system for abuse; that said, it's rare to see it illustrated so plainly). > Being in the hospital or at the doctors was an excuse used more than once my companies trying to slow down inquiry into their mistakes. And yes, I think for our use case, it was completely reasonable for us to be able to call the hospital and ask "was so and so admitted last night?", just for us to find out that they were not, and went back home to mom's house to hide under orders from their captain. Just because it made your job easier doesn't mean that it was legitimate. Constitutional rights, privacy laws, and case law have been created specifically to limit police power. Yes, it would be easier if cops didn't need warrants at all. No, that is not a valid argument for bypassing them. Similarly - yes, it's common for LEOs to talk to witnesses to try and get them to incriminate themselves, either by engaging them in interactions that don't legally require a Miranda warning or by ignoring Miranda requirements altogether (which happens frequently). That doesn't justify it, either legally or ethically. > Anyway, with all that said, it seems unlikely these powers are not frequently abused, even if most of the LEO community is just trying to do their job. The assumption that "most LEOs are just trying to do their job" is itself questionable, given how much documentation there is of systemic abuse of police power. Even if it weren't, that isn't a valid defense when the government has explicitly placed restraints on the ways LEO can do their job (to say nothing of the broader question of the legitimacy of that job in the first place).
- levinb 3y ago
  > Just because it made your job easier doesn't mean that it was legitimate. So, I suppose that the main point. In these cases, we weren't investigating the individual as a suspect, we were trying to understand the nature of an incident that could affect the safety of others in a relatively linear fashion. Imagine it's 20 years ago, there's no cameras everywhere, GPS is limited to multi-meter precision - did the 50-barge tow coming down the Mississipi river with millions of tons of cargo hit the interstate bridge broadside or did it just scrape it? There's a big pylon-shaped dent in the side of a naptha barge with cement dust on it, but the captain swears he just glanced it with the grain barge at the head of the tow. It's ancient and looks like it's battered 100 docks in the past year. So, Mr. Deckhand, what hit the bridge? In this scenario, he is not responsible for navigating the vessel, so we assume that it's unlikley that this would evolve into an investigation that would jeopardize him. And thus are free to issue a subpoenea if needed to find out if we need to shut down the only passage over the Mississippi for 100 miles. I think it's fair that the public has the right to his honesty in this scenario. Of course, these powers present the potential for abuse, and I'm sure it happens. Just not in the world I ever operated in; our powers and obligations were taken very seriously internally.

by levinb 3y ago

chimeracoder 3y ago

As someone who also has a lot of experience in this area, I'll say that your comment is a classic example of the tactics that that LEOs use to minimize or defend abuses of power. It's actually a great case study, because it exemplifies the way that abuses of power are adopted structurally at an institutional level, while also drawing the line to how that is internalized and effected in practice by individuals. (This process is a key component of any stable system for abuse; that said, it's rare to see it illustrated so plainly). > Being in the hospital or at the doctors was an excuse used more than once my companies trying to slow down inquiry into their mistakes. And yes, I think for our use case, it was completely reasonable for us to be able to call the hospital and ask "was so and so admitted last night?", just for us to find out that they were not, and went back home to mom's house to hide under orders from their captain. Just because it made your job easier doesn't mean that it was legitimate. Constitutional rights, privacy laws, and case law have been created specifically to limit police power. Yes, it would be easier if cops didn't need warrants at all. No, that is not a valid argument for bypassing them. Similarly - yes, it's common for LEOs to talk to witnesses to try and get them to incriminate themselves, either by engaging them in interactions that don't legally require a Miranda warning or by ignoring Miranda requirements altogether (which happens frequently). That doesn't justify it, either legally or ethically. > Anyway, with all that said, it seems unlikely these powers are not frequently abused, even if most of the LEO community is just trying to do their job. The assumption that "most LEOs are just trying to do their job" is itself questionable, given how much documentation there is of systemic abuse of police power. Even if it weren't, that isn't a valid defense when the government has explicitly placed restraints on the ways LEO can do their job (to say nothing of the broader question of the legitimacy of that job in the first place).

levinb 3y ago
> Just because it made your job easier doesn't mean that it was legitimate. So, I suppose that the main point. In these cases, we weren't investigating the individual as a suspect, we were trying to understand the nature of an incident that could affect the safety of others in a relatively linear fashion. Imagine it's 20 years ago, there's no cameras everywhere, GPS is limited to multi-meter precision - did the 50-barge tow coming down the Mississipi river with millions of tons of cargo hit the interstate bridge broadside or did it just scrape it? There's a big pylon-shaped dent in the side of a naptha barge with cement dust on it, but the captain swears he just glanced it with the grain barge at the head of the tow. It's ancient and looks like it's battered 100 docks in the past year. So, Mr. Deckhand, what hit the bridge? In this scenario, he is not responsible for navigating the vessel, so we assume that it's unlikley that this would evolve into an investigation that would jeopardize him. And thus are free to issue a subpoenea if needed to find out if we need to shut down the only passage over the Mississippi for 100 miles. I think it's fair that the public has the right to his honesty in this scenario. Of course, these powers present the potential for abuse, and I'm sure it happens. Just not in the world I ever operated in; our powers and obligations were taken very seriously internally.