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I feel like the Gentoo userbase has been stolen in part by Arch these days.

phamilton 3y ago
It never recovered from the loss of gentoo-wiki
BrandoElFollito 3y ago
I used to use Gentoo 20+ years ago; installing it was eye-opening. It helped me enormously to understand how Linux works. I then moved to debian/ubuntu and recently switched my main server to Arch. And you are right - I got back this feeling of having all my 10 fingers in the system and living on the bleeding edge. Now: this was probably not the brightest choice, as this server rund my docker containers and basically nothing more so it should have been Debian(a fire-and-forget OS)
- moepstar 3y ago
  > I used to use Gentoo 20+ years ago; installing it was eye-opening. It helped me enormously to understand how Linux works. Same! Starting with a Stage 1 install was what got me (with some guidance of a friend and the perfect Gentoo Wiki) into Linux circa 2004 (IIRC). Now, some 20 years later, i much prefer to have not to deal with something as... dare i say.. fragile... anymore. Yes, much of the breakage i dealt with was probably self-inflicted but always a good learning experience - but most of the time not at the most convenient time :(
  - voidfunc 3y ago
    The Gentoo to Arch pipeline is pretty real. I did Stage 1's as well around the same time but eventually got tired of doing that every so often or fighting Portage and switched to Arch. Then I got tired of dealing with Arch... and ended up on Fedora. I always liked Gentoo and Arch, but I don't have the energy to put up maintaining them anymore.
    - oniony 3y ago
      Arch is literally the easiest thing to maintain. I've been running it for over fifteen years, update maybe once a year at most and 99% of the time it's a case of running pacdiff and updating a handful of config files.
      - nixgeek 3y ago
        In 1998, Debian was a great option for SPARC and Alpha, and that’s really where I cut my teeth with Linux. Around 2004, I was building Gentoo up from stage1 just like many other commenters. For 2024 and personal stuff I’m back on Debian and it’s safe enough I pull security updates daily - entirely automated and no review on my part. It essentially never causes a problem. Updating once a year sounds terrifying to me given the rate of vulnerability discoveries of late. As ever your mileage may vary and your systems aren’t my systems, but Debian truly is a wonderful OSS project and as of August 2023 it celebrated its 30th anniversary! Gentoo going binary feels weird :) I’ve still got a soft spot for Gentoo and what it enabled me to do 15 years ago when I had more time for personal hacks.
        fidelramos 3y ago
        I also got in GNU/Linux in 1998. Dipped my toes with Mandrake, then Debian, and around 2012 switched to Kubuntu. Now I'm in the process of moving my desktop computers to Archlinux, to enjoy better control and up-to-date software. Servers I keep in Debian for the same reasons you mention: stability and safe automated updates.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
- lovecg 3y ago
  I did the hardcore path of Linux From Scratch and then discovered Gentoo which was a (very welcome) step down for customizability :) Highly recommend LFS for anyone who has a couple of hours per day to waste (i.e. young with no responsibilities)
- MrDrMcCoy 3y ago
  > Now: this was probably not the brightest choice, as this server rund my docker containers and basically nothing more so it should have been Debian(a fire-and-forget OS) I dunno, there's a fair amount to be said for having an up-to-date kernel, systemd, and Docker. :)
  - BrandoElFollito 3y ago
    It depends on the kind of "up-to-datism", at least for me. Security - yes. Features - for docker yes, the rest not really. The main problem is that if I provide a specific repo for docker (to keep a fresh version) it can request some dependencies and bam! I have a Debian-Turend-Arch system to maintain :)
    - MrDrMcCoy 3y ago
      I mostly included syetemd due to the shiny new feature where you can enable kernel samepage merging for arbitrary applications. Could be very useful for certain use cases.
connorgutman 3y ago
Definitely a lot of crossover. However, there are several things that make Arch unusable for me. The #1 thing is that Arch only officially supports AMD64. Additionally, while I find Arch’s documentation better than most, it’s hard to understate how amazing the Gentoo wiki is. Lastly, I prefer portage overlays (like Guru) over the AUR. Bigger !== better. Again, the beauty of Linux is choice. Nothing but love for my Arch neighbors!
saghm 3y ago
The one place Arch still is fairly opinionated compared to Gentoo is being all-in on systemd. That's not to say you _can't_ remove/replace it, and obviously there are Arch-like distros that give other options, but my sense is that GP's comment about Gentoo's draw being completely agnostic to whatever configuration you want makes Arch having even a single strong opinion feel pretty different to users who care about that. I think you're probably right that most people probably don't need that, but then again, even as an Arch user, I think most people probably don't really need the amount of customization that Arch lets you have; I just happen to like it.
- paldepind2 3y ago
  I wouldn't say systemd is the "one place" where Arch has an opinion. Quite the opposite, Arch is just as opinionated as the average distro. On Void Linux you can choose between musl and glibc, on Arch you're forced to use glibc. On Gentoo you can choose your init system, on Arch you're forced to use systems. On Debian you can have `/bin/sh` be any POSIX shell, on Arch you're forced to have it be Bash. On nixOS you can choose between rolling and normal release, on Arch there's only a rolling release. I can't really think of anything you can customize on Arch that you can't configure on most distros, but perhaps I'm missing something.
  - starttoaster 3y ago
    My experience using Arch has very much been "it's just like all the other distros, except now you have at least 4 package managers to go through if you want to install any particular thing and you will almost certainly need to install utilities that convert packages from other package managers over to PKGBUILD." Other than that, it's felt very similar to just using something like Debian. Which is fine, and Debian is fine, but the praise other people give it as "the modder's distro," or something like it, seems a little over zealous.
    - gryn 3y ago
      Your experience sounds weird. Reading it remind me of people who come from programming paradigm X try paradigm Y and only use methods from X only to conclude that Y sucks. Why would you use 4 package managers to do 1 thing ? Most people who use arch use 1 and it does the job. All of them are built around pacman + smth for AUR packages. Personally I use pacui. Why would you convert package from other distro, if another distro has it then it most certainly exists in the AUR, never once had to touch another distro's packaging. I don't know about the "the modder's distro" part but I personally had much less headaches with it than I had with Ubuntu,fedora,debian, and CentOS. The only thing that sucks for me (regardless of distro) is Nvidia updates.
colordrops 3y ago
And NixOS. The fact that Nix has had a binary cache was one of the reasons I chose it over Gentoo.
sramsay 3y ago
Also a die-hard Gentoo fan (daily driver for 20+ years). I tried Arch and what astounded me the most is that the docs didn't seem as good as Gentoo's. That surprised me because I end up looking at Arch's docs all the time and it's all of a very high quality. But the Gentoo Handbook is really a masterpiece. I've never read a clearer explanation of how to go from unformatted disks to a working system.
ok123456 3y ago
I use arch btw
Tommstein 3y ago
Exactly my case. Used to use Gentoo, got tired of every other update breaking the system, was told on IRC that if I didn't like "free" updates (because apparently my time and serenity have no value) perpetually breaking the system I could go use something else, and that's exactly what I did. Arch is solid.
- globular-toast 3y ago
  I've broken Arch before but I've never broken Gentoo. Probably because I broke Arch first and learnt from it. You broke Gentoo first.
globular-toast 3y ago
Yes, but it's a shame. Especially now Gentoo has these binary packages there's really no reason to choose arch. Arch is like "choose any system you want, as long as it's x86-64, systemd etc"

It never recovered from the loss of gentoo-wiki

I used to use Gentoo 20+ years ago; installing it was eye-opening. It helped me enormously to understand how Linux works. I then moved to debian/ubuntu and recently switched my main server to Arch. And you are right - I got back this feeling of having all my 10 fingers in the system and living on the bleeding edge. Now: this was probably not the brightest choice, as this server rund my docker containers and basically nothing more so it should have been Debian(a fire-and-forget OS)

moepstar 3y ago
> I used to use Gentoo 20+ years ago; installing it was eye-opening. It helped me enormously to understand how Linux works. Same! Starting with a Stage 1 install was what got me (with some guidance of a friend and the perfect Gentoo Wiki) into Linux circa 2004 (IIRC). Now, some 20 years later, i much prefer to have not to deal with something as... dare i say.. fragile... anymore. Yes, much of the breakage i dealt with was probably self-inflicted but always a good learning experience - but most of the time not at the most convenient time :(
- voidfunc 3y ago
  The Gentoo to Arch pipeline is pretty real. I did Stage 1's as well around the same time but eventually got tired of doing that every so often or fighting Portage and switched to Arch. Then I got tired of dealing with Arch... and ended up on Fedora. I always liked Gentoo and Arch, but I don't have the energy to put up maintaining them anymore.
  - oniony 3y ago
    Arch is literally the easiest thing to maintain. I've been running it for over fifteen years, update maybe once a year at most and 99% of the time it's a case of running pacdiff and updating a handful of config files.
    - nixgeek 3y ago
      In 1998, Debian was a great option for SPARC and Alpha, and that’s really where I cut my teeth with Linux. Around 2004, I was building Gentoo up from stage1 just like many other commenters. For 2024 and personal stuff I’m back on Debian and it’s safe enough I pull security updates daily - entirely automated and no review on my part. It essentially never causes a problem. Updating once a year sounds terrifying to me given the rate of vulnerability discoveries of late. As ever your mileage may vary and your systems aren’t my systems, but Debian truly is a wonderful OSS project and as of August 2023 it celebrated its 30th anniversary! Gentoo going binary feels weird :) I’ve still got a soft spot for Gentoo and what it enabled me to do 15 years ago when I had more time for personal hacks.
      - fidelramos 3y ago
        I also got in GNU/Linux in 1998. Dipped my toes with Mandrake, then Debian, and around 2012 switched to Kubuntu. Now I'm in the process of moving my desktop computers to Archlinux, to enjoy better control and up-to-date software. Servers I keep in Debian for the same reasons you mention: stability and safe automated updates.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
lovecg 3y ago
I did the hardcore path of Linux From Scratch and then discovered Gentoo which was a (very welcome) step down for customizability :) Highly recommend LFS for anyone who has a couple of hours per day to waste (i.e. young with no responsibilities)
MrDrMcCoy 3y ago
> Now: this was probably not the brightest choice, as this server rund my docker containers and basically nothing more so it should have been Debian(a fire-and-forget OS) I dunno, there's a fair amount to be said for having an up-to-date kernel, systemd, and Docker. :)
- BrandoElFollito 3y ago
  It depends on the kind of "up-to-datism", at least for me. Security - yes. Features - for docker yes, the rest not really. The main problem is that if I provide a specific repo for docker (to keep a fresh version) it can request some dependencies and bam! I have a Debian-Turend-Arch system to maintain :)
  - MrDrMcCoy 3y ago
    I mostly included syetemd due to the shiny new feature where you can enable kernel samepage merging for arbitrary applications. Could be very useful for certain use cases.

connorgutman 3y ago

Definitely a lot of crossover. However, there are several things that make Arch unusable for me. The #1 thing is that Arch only officially supports AMD64. Additionally, while I find Arch’s documentation better than most, it’s hard to understate how amazing the Gentoo wiki is. Lastly, I prefer portage overlays (like Guru) over the AUR. Bigger !== better. Again, the beauty of Linux is choice. Nothing but love for my Arch neighbors!

saghm 3y ago

The one place Arch still is fairly opinionated compared to Gentoo is being all-in on systemd. That's not to say you _can't_ remove/replace it, and obviously there are Arch-like distros that give other options, but my sense is that GP's comment about Gentoo's draw being completely agnostic to whatever configuration you want makes Arch having even a single strong opinion feel pretty different to users who care about that. I think you're probably right that most people probably don't need that, but then again, even as an Arch user, I think most people probably don't really need the amount of customization that Arch lets you have; I just happen to like it.

paldepind2 3y ago
I wouldn't say systemd is the "one place" where Arch has an opinion. Quite the opposite, Arch is just as opinionated as the average distro. On Void Linux you can choose between musl and glibc, on Arch you're forced to use glibc. On Gentoo you can choose your init system, on Arch you're forced to use systems. On Debian you can have `/bin/sh` be any POSIX shell, on Arch you're forced to have it be Bash. On nixOS you can choose between rolling and normal release, on Arch there's only a rolling release. I can't really think of anything you can customize on Arch that you can't configure on most distros, but perhaps I'm missing something.
- starttoaster 3y ago
  My experience using Arch has very much been "it's just like all the other distros, except now you have at least 4 package managers to go through if you want to install any particular thing and you will almost certainly need to install utilities that convert packages from other package managers over to PKGBUILD." Other than that, it's felt very similar to just using something like Debian. Which is fine, and Debian is fine, but the praise other people give it as "the modder's distro," or something like it, seems a little over zealous.
  - gryn 3y ago
    Your experience sounds weird. Reading it remind me of people who come from programming paradigm X try paradigm Y and only use methods from X only to conclude that Y sucks. Why would you use 4 package managers to do 1 thing ? Most people who use arch use 1 and it does the job. All of them are built around pacman + smth for AUR packages. Personally I use pacui. Why would you convert package from other distro, if another distro has it then it most certainly exists in the AUR, never once had to touch another distro's packaging. I don't know about the "the modder's distro" part but I personally had much less headaches with it than I had with Ubuntu,fedora,debian, and CentOS. The only thing that sucks for me (regardless of distro) is Nvidia updates.

colordrops 3y ago

And NixOS. The fact that Nix has had a binary cache was one of the reasons I chose it over Gentoo.

sramsay 3y ago

Also a die-hard Gentoo fan (daily driver for 20+ years). I tried Arch and what astounded me the most is that the docs didn't seem as good as Gentoo's. That surprised me because I end up looking at Arch's docs all the time and it's all of a very high quality. But the Gentoo Handbook is really a masterpiece. I've never read a clearer explanation of how to go from unformatted disks to a working system.

ok123456 3y ago

I use arch btw

Tommstein 3y ago

Exactly my case. Used to use Gentoo, got tired of every other update breaking the system, was told on IRC that if I didn't like "free" updates (because apparently my time and serenity have no value) perpetually breaking the system I could go use something else, and that's exactly what I did. Arch is solid.

globular-toast 3y ago
I've broken Arch before but I've never broken Gentoo. Probably because I broke Arch first and learnt from it. You broke Gentoo first.

globular-toast 3y ago

Yes, but it's a shame. Especially now Gentoo has these binary packages there's really no reason to choose arch. Arch is like "choose any system you want, as long as it's x86-64, systemd etc"