3 ms·
The fact is that we probably need all of the following to have any hope of reaching carbon neutral: 1. Nuclear for base load 2. Wind and solar with storage fo
by zaphar 3y ago
The fact is that we probably need all of the following to have any hope of reaching carbon neutral:
1. Nuclear for base load
2. Wind and solar with storage for supplemental
3. Carbon capture and storage
Any discussion that tries to exclude one of them is in my mind non-serious and the ultimate form of greenwashing. In practical terms it's not going to be possible to get there without some form of all of the above.
- pfdietz 3y agoWe don't need nuclear for base load. Nuclear and renewables don't play together well either.
- mpweiher 3y agoWe don't need unreliable renewables when we have reliable nuclear. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ But it can be nice on top for things that can be deferred or that align with availability. For example, solar seems really sweet for running air-conditioning units in hot/sunny climates. And you can probably schedule charging your EV for when the wind is blowing. But stop an aluminum smelter for more than 6 hours and the factory is kaput. And if we're going to heat our homes using electricity, I'd rather not have that be contingent on whether the weather is feeling like it today.
- pfdietz 3y agoThe renewables end up cheaper though, especially as you project established experience curves for renewables, batteries, and electrolyzers into the future. The case for nuclear is built on an every expanding foundation of wishful and magical thinking. All contrary evidence is waved away by conspiracy theoretic dismissal involving regulators and all powerful greens.
- mpweiher 3y agoNo they do not. The case for renewables is built on wishful thinking. You wrote so yourself: projections into the future of past exponentials, plus needed magical solutions to problems that currently have no reasonable solution. For a closer look at what happens when wishful thinking and reliance on future magic hits cold harsh reality, look no further than Germany: Germany went from envy of the world to the worst-performing major developed economy. What happened? https://apnews.com/article/germany-economy-energy-crisis-russia-8a00eebbfab3f20c5c66b1cd85ae84ed https://apnews.com/article/germany-economy-energy-crisis-rus... "Germany risks “deindustrialization” as high energy costs and government inaction on other chronic problems threaten to send new factories and high-paying jobs elsewhere, ..." "“It was mistaken political decisions that primarily developed and influenced these high energy costs. ..." "A 2011 decision to shut down Germany’s remaining nuclear power plants has been questioned amid worries about electricity prices and shortages. " "In the meantime, energy-intensive companies are looking to cope with the price shock." "[Hydrogen for glass production] worked — but only on a small scale, with hydrogen supplied by truck. Mass quantities of hydrogen produced with renewable electricity and delivered by pipeline would be needed and don’t exist yet." "“The perception of Germany’s underlying strength may also have contributed to the misguided decisions to exit nuclear energy, ban fracking for natural gas and bet on ample natural gas supplies from Russia,”" Germany Faces $1 Trillion Challenge to Plug Massive Power Gap https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-02-25/germany-faces-1-trillion-challenge-to-plug-massive-power-gap https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-02-25/germany-f... "BASF SE’s plans to cut 2,600 jobs as it faces strains from the energy crisis is a sign of the urgency. The chemical giant’s operations in Germany swung to a loss during the second half, and it’s now closing a number of energy-intensive factories,..." "“High energy prices are now putting an additional burden on profitability and competitiveness in Europe,”..." "At the heart of Germany’s dilemma lies political plans to phase out certain energy sources without clearly setting out the path to replace them." "Germany also needs to figure out how it will generate electricity when wind and sun aren’t available. The government’s plan so far involves readying a fleet of new gas plants that can later run on hydrogen, though it’s struggling to find investors willing to take on such costly projects." "“Under the current framework conditions, sufficient investment cannot be expected,” ..." "The size of Germany’s grid will have to double by 2030" [Narrator: grid transmission lines take longer to build than even the most delayed nuclear power plants] All nuclear needs is building things we know how to build no worse than we built them in the past. If we apply the same technological wishful thinking you take for granted with renewable to nuclear, than it's not even close.
- Krasnol 3y agoParroting opposition and right wing German Angst scenarios won't bring nuclear back. Its capacity has been replaced years ago. The "deindustrialization"-meme has been created when BASF started crying for subsidies because they didn't bother to diversify and relied heavily on Russian gas. No nuclear reactor will ever be able to fix that. Despite all that, Germany came out pretty good and no fearmongering will create any of those scenarios: https://www.br.de/nachrichten/wirtschaft/deindustrialisierung-deutschland-standort-wie-schlimm-ist-es,Tlmcfpy https://www.br.de/nachrichten/wirtschaft/deindustrialisierun... https://www.fr.de/meinung/deutschland-wirtschaft-konkunktur-krise-energie-kosten-zukunft-herausforderungen-92435623.html https://www.fr.de/meinung/deutschland-wirtschaft-konkunktur-...
- pfdietz 3y agoDeindustrialization is not a complaint about nuclear, it's a complaint about not being able to continue to use fossil fuels. It's a rejection of climate change itself, and you see this stacked with climate change denial. It's true that Germany is not in a good place to compete in a post-fossil fuel world. Renewable energy is going to be more expensive in Europe than in, say, India. But nuclear can't help without short of near miraculous cost reductions.
- mpweiher 3y agoOn cue, the "it's all right wing propaganda" dodge. Bloomberg is not part of the German "right wing", and also not known for disseminating propaganda. Furthermore, the "right" is just as responsible for the mess as the "left". The current applicable laws were passed during a grand-coalition under Merkel. This is not a party-political issue, but a German issue. And Pro Tip: if you can't actually counter the facts, trying to denounce is not helpful. Because, as you can't counter the facts, you are admitting that "the right wing" actually has the facts correct. From the piece you cited as a counter: "Einige Industriebetriebe denken mangels Billig-Gas darüber nach, ihre Werke ins Ausland zu verlagern, zumal der Strom hierzulande auch nicht günstig ist. Es geht um energieintensive Branchen wie Chemie, Papier, Glas oder Baustoffe." Hmm...companies that need energy are thinking of moving their production elsewhere, because electricity is also not cheap in Germany. Not sure how that makes your point that renewables are "cheaper", when German electricity is more expensive than in other countries. Which it is.
- Krasnol 3y agoimho we're today already at a point where investing in nuclear is a waste of (taxpayer) money. Base load is no issue anymore in a grid which is large enough. There is always wind/sun/water somewhere.