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I never understood the "salt scarcity in antiquity" idea. As in they could just use a splash brine water from the sea if you physiologically need salt. And tran

I never understood the "salt scarcity in antiquity" idea. As in they could just use a splash brine water from the sea if you physiologically need salt. And transport sea water inland as needed.

ponector 3y ago
Main purpose for salt was good preservation. That's why it was extremely valuable.
- jvanderbot 3y ago
  Above comment said it was not scarce, not that it wasn't valuable.
  - ponector 3y ago
    If it is not scarce - the value is low.
    - whoknowsidont 3y ago
      Breathable air is pretty valuable, at least for me. And it's definitely not that scarce on this planet.
    - qwytw 3y ago
      Well it was. Supposedly it cost about the same as wheat by volume (and salt is ~50% more dense). So it was dirt cheap.
- Turing_Machine 3y ago
  Yep. Some combination of drying, salting, and smoking was pretty much it. No refrigeration. No freezing. No canning. They used a lot of salt.
  - dimitrios1 3y ago
    Don't forget about fermenting and pickling. They also had cellars and natural refrigerators.
- Ekaros 3y ago
  I think in that statement the "extremely" carries way too much weight. As it would imply price to be very high. Which then would mean that regular people would not have access. But they also widely used salt. So it could not have been extremely valuable as we understand. Or maybe gasoline is extremely valuable commodity now...
  - ponector 3y ago
    Yes, you can compare it with today's oil trade. Salt production and trade have been restricted, usually state-owned monopoly. Cities with salt mines like Salzburg became extremely rich, like oil countries today. Is gasoline valuable? Yes. Is affordable? Yes, but not for everyone. Same with salt back than.
    - thaumasiotes 3y ago
      > Is affordable? Yes, but not for everyone. Same with salt back than. That isn't possible; someone who can't afford salt dies. It's like claiming that water "isn't affordable for everyone". It is, and it must be, because people who can't afford it also can't exist.
- lolinder 3y ago
  According to the article, a Roman soldier could buy about 15 (modern) pounds of salt with a single day's wages. Comparisons are very hard, but to put that in a bit of perspective: at an average salary of $60k/yr, a typical American today makes $165/day. So the cost in time for a Roman to buy salt would be roughly equivalent to if the price for salt today were $11/lb. That's more expensive than it is today (I just bought salt for ~$2.50/lb), but it's a far cry from extremely valuable.
  - Retric 3y ago
    $60k/yr is a poor comparison because even modern Solders get paid less than average at a base but get room and board + many benefits. An Army private starts at, $1,833/mo that’s 21k/year. Even corporal is only getting $2,393/mo to start and cap at $2,906/mo w/ 10 years. https://www.military-ranks.org/army-pay https://www.military-ranks.org/army-pay So a modern soldier starts at ~24lb/day of your 2.50$/lb salt, but also has much cheaper alternatives.
    - lolinder 3y ago
      Like I said, comparisons are hard. The point is that it wasn't a luxury good or an exceptionally valuable commodity, it was affordable.
    - refurb 3y ago
      US military is actually paid very well. You’re right about the wages, but single soldiers live on base (no housing costs) and are also fed (no food costs). That’s $1,833 per month is all discretionary which is why you hear the stories of 18 year old privates buying a new <insert fast car>. A $800/month car payment is no problem with plenty left over. And once you get married you can live off base and a Basic Housing Allowance. If stationed in San Francisco (unlikely, but a good example), you get $3,177/month as an E-2 (Private 2nd class). You get even more money with kids. Then add on top a full pension after 20 years and full healthcare coverage through the VA. Overall military pay is actually quite high.
andrewflnr 3y ago
Transporting water from a well is already a pain in the neck. You think they're going to transport bulk seawater deep inland just to make their food soggy?
- thaumasiotes 3y ago
  No, but it's very easy to make the seawater into salt and then transport the salt.
  - andrewflnr 3y ago
    No kidding, that's why that one actually happens.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - askvictor 3y ago
    Define easy
    - thaumasiotes 3y ago
      You need to move seawater into an area where it won't empty back into the sea. This requires a jar. And you need to carry the salt. That's it. Salt can't rot and it's needed everywhere; this is just about the easiest piece of commerce you can do.
      - Spooky23 3y ago
        Very simple. Now scale it to feed an army with 2000 year old technology.
        andrewflnr 3y ago
        Ok, but remember, in this benighted subthread, we're comparing with a proposal to move seawater instead, in equivalent amounts.
Ekaros 3y ago
It really wasn't any more scarce than let's say wheat. And price seems to have been around same level with wheat take or leave some depending on distance from production. What really made it special was that it was commodity with possibly limited production locations, that kept extremely well and was in steady demand. So it is one thing that everyone uses and is relatively easy to tax. And the price likely was much more stable compared to food and other goods. The large scale demand also lead to it being desirable as military target, once you control the production you are good.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
Spooky23 3y ago
Huh? Who’s gonna pour seawater on their food or to preserve meats? The reality was just that making salt is an unpleasant, labor intensive task. In the Roman era, this involved slaves and thus capital.
crabbone 3y ago
Ukrainian tradition and folklore prominently features these guys: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chumak https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chumak . While the Wiki page mentions that in Ukrainian The Milky Way is called The Way of Chumaks it doesn't explain why -- but if you know the folklore, you'd immediately see that the idea is that it's the salt spillovers from their carts. Salt was one of the most important goods that were traded over long distances. And no, technologically it wasn't advantageous to transport seawater or try to convert seawater into salt. Ukrainian city of Soledar that was prominently featured in the news last year literally means "gifting salt" -- and it has huge historical salt mines under it. So, not only in antiquity, all the way through to the 19th century salt was one of the key goods traded over long distances. It wasn't as scarce as diamonds, but due to high demand it was still a worthwhile thing to trade.

I never understood the "salt scarcity in antiquity" idea. As in they could just use a splash brine water from the sea if you physiologically need salt. And transport sea water inland as needed.

ponector 3y ago

Main purpose for salt was good preservation. That's why it was extremely valuable.

jvanderbot 3y ago
Above comment said it was not scarce, not that it wasn't valuable.
- ponector 3y ago
  If it is not scarce - the value is low.
  - whoknowsidont 3y ago
    Breathable air is pretty valuable, at least for me. And it's definitely not that scarce on this planet.
  - qwytw 3y ago
    Well it was. Supposedly it cost about the same as wheat by volume (and salt is ~50% more dense). So it was dirt cheap.
Turing_Machine 3y ago
Yep. Some combination of drying, salting, and smoking was pretty much it. No refrigeration. No freezing. No canning. They used a lot of salt.
- dimitrios1 3y ago
  Don't forget about fermenting and pickling. They also had cellars and natural refrigerators.
Ekaros 3y ago
I think in that statement the "extremely" carries way too much weight. As it would imply price to be very high. Which then would mean that regular people would not have access. But they also widely used salt. So it could not have been extremely valuable as we understand. Or maybe gasoline is extremely valuable commodity now...
- ponector 3y ago
  Yes, you can compare it with today's oil trade. Salt production and trade have been restricted, usually state-owned monopoly. Cities with salt mines like Salzburg became extremely rich, like oil countries today. Is gasoline valuable? Yes. Is affordable? Yes, but not for everyone. Same with salt back than.
  - thaumasiotes 3y ago
    > Is affordable? Yes, but not for everyone. Same with salt back than. That isn't possible; someone who can't afford salt dies. It's like claiming that water "isn't affordable for everyone". It is, and it must be, because people who can't afford it also can't exist.
lolinder 3y ago
According to the article, a Roman soldier could buy about 15 (modern) pounds of salt with a single day's wages. Comparisons are very hard, but to put that in a bit of perspective: at an average salary of $60k/yr, a typical American today makes $165/day. So the cost in time for a Roman to buy salt would be roughly equivalent to if the price for salt today were $11/lb. That's more expensive than it is today (I just bought salt for ~$2.50/lb), but it's a far cry from extremely valuable.
- Retric 3y ago
  $60k/yr is a poor comparison because even modern Solders get paid less than average at a base but get room and board + many benefits. An Army private starts at, $1,833/mo that’s 21k/year. Even corporal is only getting $2,393/mo to start and cap at $2,906/mo w/ 10 years. https://www.military-ranks.org/army-pay https://www.military-ranks.org/army-pay So a modern soldier starts at ~24lb/day of your 2.50$/lb salt, but also has much cheaper alternatives.
  - lolinder 3y ago
    Like I said, comparisons are hard. The point is that it wasn't a luxury good or an exceptionally valuable commodity, it was affordable.
  - refurb 3y ago
    US military is actually paid very well. You’re right about the wages, but single soldiers live on base (no housing costs) and are also fed (no food costs). That’s $1,833 per month is all discretionary which is why you hear the stories of 18 year old privates buying a new <insert fast car>. A $800/month car payment is no problem with plenty left over. And once you get married you can live off base and a Basic Housing Allowance. If stationed in San Francisco (unlikely, but a good example), you get $3,177/month as an E-2 (Private 2nd class). You get even more money with kids. Then add on top a full pension after 20 years and full healthcare coverage through the VA. Overall military pay is actually quite high.

andrewflnr 3y ago

Transporting water from a well is already a pain in the neck. You think they're going to transport bulk seawater deep inland just to make their food soggy?

thaumasiotes 3y ago
No, but it's very easy to make the seawater into salt and then transport the salt.
- andrewflnr 3y ago
  No kidding, that's why that one actually happens.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- askvictor 3y ago
  Define easy
  - thaumasiotes 3y ago
    You need to move seawater into an area where it won't empty back into the sea. This requires a jar. And you need to carry the salt. That's it. Salt can't rot and it's needed everywhere; this is just about the easiest piece of commerce you can do.
    - Spooky23 3y ago
      Very simple. Now scale it to feed an army with 2000 year old technology.
      - andrewflnr 3y ago
        Ok, but remember, in this benighted subthread, we're comparing with a proposal to move seawater instead, in equivalent amounts.

Ekaros 3y ago

It really wasn't any more scarce than let's say wheat. And price seems to have been around same level with wheat take or leave some depending on distance from production. What really made it special was that it was commodity with possibly limited production locations, that kept extremely well and was in steady demand. So it is one thing that everyone uses and is relatively easy to tax. And the price likely was much more stable compared to food and other goods. The large scale demand also lead to it being desirable as military target, once you control the production you are good.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

Spooky23 3y ago

Huh? Who’s gonna pour seawater on their food or to preserve meats? The reality was just that making salt is an unpleasant, labor intensive task. In the Roman era, this involved slaves and thus capital.

crabbone 3y ago

Ukrainian tradition and folklore prominently features these guys: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chumak https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chumak . While the Wiki page mentions that in Ukrainian The Milky Way is called The Way of Chumaks it doesn't explain why -- but if you know the folklore, you'd immediately see that the idea is that it's the salt spillovers from their carts. Salt was one of the most important goods that were traded over long distances. And no, technologically it wasn't advantageous to transport seawater or try to convert seawater into salt. Ukrainian city of Soledar that was prominently featured in the news last year literally means "gifting salt" -- and it has huge historical salt mines under it. So, not only in antiquity, all the way through to the 19th century salt was one of the key goods traded over long distances. It wasn't as scarce as diamonds, but due to high demand it was still a worthwhile thing to trade.