5 ms·

Does anyone know of an actual case of a person who was impacted by this? The OP does not describe such a one. Is the only impact on people suspected of using pr

Does anyone know of an actual case of a person who was impacted by this? The OP does not describe such a one. Is the only impact on people suspected of using prescription drugs to kill, rape or otherwise harm? I am having trouble imagining other kinds of impacts.

alemanek 3y ago
If the police have a reasonable suspicion then they should have no problem getting a warrant. If they cant clear that bar then maybe they shouldn’t get that information. Rules aren’t just for people you like or approve of.
- hollerith 3y ago
  So you're not curious at all about how this "information leak" you probably did not know about before today could bite you personally? For you, this conversation is only about public policy and how you and I might change it -- and not at all about how you personally (or someone you care about) could modify your purchasing behavior to reduce your vulnerability to adverse governmental action? I agree with the legal principle you describe, but to me that is the less interesting angle because public policy is hard to change whereas my own behavior is much easier to change. It is amusing that I cannot have a conversation here about any other angle without getting downvoted by people opposed to any writings that could possibly be useful to the opposing side in the public debate over the one angle they want to talk (write) about.
- xxpor 3y ago
  The standard for a warrant is probable cause, not reasonable suspicion.
  - ClumsyPilot 3y ago
    I think OP’s point is that, without privacy, there is no standard at all.
mindcrime 3y ago
Does anyone know of an actual case of a person who was impacted by this? What difference does that make? It's wrong, regardless of whether or not one can cite a specific case where it affected someone. This is no different than the b.s. "you don't need privacy if you don't have anything to hide" crap that people spout sometimes. If the govt. needs this information, the can get a warrant. If they can't get a warrant, they don't need the information. This isn't that hard to figure out.
edrxty 3y ago
Oh boy... Here's a good one: the FAA categorically prevents any pilots from taking any psychiatric medication (minor caveats but the point holds in practice), in particular for depression, anxiety, and ADHD, all of which are extremely common in the airlines. As such, everyone just hides their diagnosis and waits until they snap because the alternative is permanently losing a job they took out hundreds of thousands in loans to get. Others pay out of pocket for treatment under false names so the FAA is currently trying to hunt them down. Before anyone says the usual stuff about not wanting their pilots on meds, the medications are safe to fly on and much safer than the alternative, the FAA just hasn't updated their psych guidelines since Freud was the standard because any change would open whichever bureaucrat up to being hauled in front of Congress for the next accident regardless of culpability. Additionally the medication standards are also inherited from ICAO so even if we wanted to change, we'd need to convince the likes of China and the Saudis (both major stakeholders) that they can come out from the rock they live under and accept modern psychological science.
- hollerith 3y ago
  Thank you!
- raverbashing 3y ago
  Ugh, this is absurd And I agree, it is safer to just get the drugs. Maybe some very specific drugs should be excluded, but that's it Same with leaded fuel and some very old mechanical gizmos in planes.
- logicchains 3y ago
  >we'd need to convince the likes of China and the Saudis (both major stakeholders) that they can come out from the rock they live under and accept modern psychological science. Giving how overwhelmingly worse the mental health is of people, especially young people, in America, I can see why the Chinese and Saudis are so reluctant to accept western psychological "science".
  - parineum 3y ago
    What's it like to do a young woman in Saudi Arabia or a young Muslim in China?
ceejayoz 3y ago
> I am having trouble imagining other kinds of impacts. You don't even have to imagine; there are plenty of concrete examples. https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-politics-and-policy/seattle-hospital-says-texas-ag-asked-records-trans-care-minors-rcna130981 https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-politics-and-policy/seat... "Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton asked a Seattle hospital to hand over records regarding gender-affirming treatment potentially given to children from Texas, according to court filings that appear to show the Republican going beyond state borders to investigate transgender health care." https://montanafreepress.org/2023/07/19/knudsen-other-republican-ags-push-for-broader-access-to-abortion-records/ https://montanafreepress.org/2023/07/19/knudsen-other-republ... "Montana’s attorney general and Republican officials from 18 other states are opposing a federal effort to strengthen medical privacy regulations, arguing that states with abortion bans should be able to obtain reproductive health care records for criminal investigations, including when a patient travels to another state."
- hollerith 3y ago
  Thank you!
- ClumsyPilot 3y ago
  > Republican officials from 18 other states are opposing a federal effort to strengthen medical privacy regulations Against big government when it suits, I see. Hypocrisy is the worst disease in politics.
  - claytongulick 3y ago
    Succumbing to the temptation of expediency to achieve one's ideology is indeed a plague that affects all of politics. Dismissing critical thought, first order reasoning, and "the ends justify the means" short-term focus has brought our country once again to the brink of civil unrest. Unfortunately, it's a phenomenon that's not limited to any particular political party.
  - FireBeyond 3y ago
    Yup, and Texas, who also tried to sue Pennsylvania (and Georgia, Michigan and Wisconsin) over how they ran their elections in 2020. > Within one day of Texas's filing, Trump, over 100 Republican Representatives, and 18 Republican state attorneys general filed motions to support the case. I expect that the 18 states opposing strengthening medical privacy are the same 18 states whose AGs filed these motions.
gosub100 3y ago
they could use it selectively to take away someone's guns. let's say someone gets on the wrong side of a politician who wants to wreck them. politician starts an "investigation" of the enemy, finds some very loose diagnosis of, say, depression, then has armed thugs raid the house and "remove all weapons", right after notifying the media. then the media leaks "our sources confirm $badguy was treated for an unknown psyciatric condition 2 years ago and tonight was found in possession of a high-powered rifle and out of concern for the safety of his family, his weapons have been confiscated". His reputation (whoever he is) is now shat on.
fritzo 3y ago
Thanks, I was wondering the same. For those downvoting this question, I think askers are trying to weigh the benefits of better data-based decision making versus privacy. Amidst an opioid crisis we're wondering if more patient-level data may have helped form an earlier picture of abuse. Having done some data science, I immediately see the benefits of clearer pictures to inform policy; and having lucked out of being targeted for medical violence I'm honestly looking for examples.
BobaFloutist 3y ago
>Is the only impact on people suspected of using prescription drugs to kill, rape or otherwise harm? The point of a warrant is that you need to have this suspicion to pull the info. If it doesn't take a warrant, they can go on fishing expeditions.

alemanek 3y ago

If the police have a reasonable suspicion then they should have no problem getting a warrant. If they cant clear that bar then maybe they shouldn’t get that information. Rules aren’t just for people you like or approve of.

hollerith 3y ago
So you're not curious at all about how this "information leak" you probably did not know about before today could bite you personally? For you, this conversation is only about public policy and how you and I might change it -- and not at all about how you personally (or someone you care about) could modify your purchasing behavior to reduce your vulnerability to adverse governmental action? I agree with the legal principle you describe, but to me that is the less interesting angle because public policy is hard to change whereas my own behavior is much easier to change. It is amusing that I cannot have a conversation here about any other angle without getting downvoted by people opposed to any writings that could possibly be useful to the opposing side in the public debate over the one angle they want to talk (write) about.
xxpor 3y ago
The standard for a warrant is probable cause, not reasonable suspicion.
- ClumsyPilot 3y ago
  I think OP’s point is that, without privacy, there is no standard at all.

mindcrime 3y ago

Does anyone know of an actual case of a person who was impacted by this? What difference does that make? It's wrong, regardless of whether or not one can cite a specific case where it affected someone. This is no different than the b.s. "you don't need privacy if you don't have anything to hide" crap that people spout sometimes. If the govt. needs this information, the can get a warrant. If they can't get a warrant, they don't need the information. This isn't that hard to figure out.

edrxty 3y ago

Oh boy... Here's a good one: the FAA categorically prevents any pilots from taking any psychiatric medication (minor caveats but the point holds in practice), in particular for depression, anxiety, and ADHD, all of which are extremely common in the airlines. As such, everyone just hides their diagnosis and waits until they snap because the alternative is permanently losing a job they took out hundreds of thousands in loans to get. Others pay out of pocket for treatment under false names so the FAA is currently trying to hunt them down. Before anyone says the usual stuff about not wanting their pilots on meds, the medications are safe to fly on and much safer than the alternative, the FAA just hasn't updated their psych guidelines since Freud was the standard because any change would open whichever bureaucrat up to being hauled in front of Congress for the next accident regardless of culpability. Additionally the medication standards are also inherited from ICAO so even if we wanted to change, we'd need to convince the likes of China and the Saudis (both major stakeholders) that they can come out from the rock they live under and accept modern psychological science.

hollerith 3y ago
Thank you!
raverbashing 3y ago
Ugh, this is absurd And I agree, it is safer to just get the drugs. Maybe some very specific drugs should be excluded, but that's it Same with leaded fuel and some very old mechanical gizmos in planes.
logicchains 3y ago
>we'd need to convince the likes of China and the Saudis (both major stakeholders) that they can come out from the rock they live under and accept modern psychological science. Giving how overwhelmingly worse the mental health is of people, especially young people, in America, I can see why the Chinese and Saudis are so reluctant to accept western psychological "science".
- parineum 3y ago
  What's it like to do a young woman in Saudi Arabia or a young Muslim in China?

ceejayoz 3y ago

> I am having trouble imagining other kinds of impacts. You don't even have to imagine; there are plenty of concrete examples. https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-politics-and-policy/seattle-hospital-says-texas-ag-asked-records-trans-care-minors-rcna130981 https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-politics-and-policy/seat... "Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton asked a Seattle hospital to hand over records regarding gender-affirming treatment potentially given to children from Texas, according to court filings that appear to show the Republican going beyond state borders to investigate transgender health care." https://montanafreepress.org/2023/07/19/knudsen-other-republican-ags-push-for-broader-access-to-abortion-records/ https://montanafreepress.org/2023/07/19/knudsen-other-republ... "Montana’s attorney general and Republican officials from 18 other states are opposing a federal effort to strengthen medical privacy regulations, arguing that states with abortion bans should be able to obtain reproductive health care records for criminal investigations, including when a patient travels to another state."

hollerith 3y ago
Thank you!
ClumsyPilot 3y ago
> Republican officials from 18 other states are opposing a federal effort to strengthen medical privacy regulations Against big government when it suits, I see. Hypocrisy is the worst disease in politics.
- claytongulick 3y ago
  Succumbing to the temptation of expediency to achieve one's ideology is indeed a plague that affects all of politics. Dismissing critical thought, first order reasoning, and "the ends justify the means" short-term focus has brought our country once again to the brink of civil unrest. Unfortunately, it's a phenomenon that's not limited to any particular political party.
- FireBeyond 3y ago
  Yup, and Texas, who also tried to sue Pennsylvania (and Georgia, Michigan and Wisconsin) over how they ran their elections in 2020. > Within one day of Texas's filing, Trump, over 100 Republican Representatives, and 18 Republican state attorneys general filed motions to support the case. I expect that the 18 states opposing strengthening medical privacy are the same 18 states whose AGs filed these motions.

gosub100 3y ago

they could use it selectively to take away someone's guns. let's say someone gets on the wrong side of a politician who wants to wreck them. politician starts an "investigation" of the enemy, finds some very loose diagnosis of, say, depression, then has armed thugs raid the house and "remove all weapons", right after notifying the media. then the media leaks "our sources confirm $badguy was treated for an unknown psyciatric condition 2 years ago and tonight was found in possession of a high-powered rifle and out of concern for the safety of his family, his weapons have been confiscated". His reputation (whoever he is) is now shat on.

fritzo 3y ago

Thanks, I was wondering the same. For those downvoting this question, I think askers are trying to weigh the benefits of better data-based decision making versus privacy. Amidst an opioid crisis we're wondering if more patient-level data may have helped form an earlier picture of abuse. Having done some data science, I immediately see the benefits of clearer pictures to inform policy; and having lucked out of being targeted for medical violence I'm honestly looking for examples.

BobaFloutist 3y ago

>Is the only impact on people suspected of using prescription drugs to kill, rape or otherwise harm? The point of a warrant is that you need to have this suspicion to pull the info. If it doesn't take a warrant, they can go on fishing expeditions.