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NO ONE owes anything to society. No debt in incurred for one's public education. What an incredibly weird way of looking at one's life. I'll take this further:

NO ONE owes anything to society. No debt in incurred for one's public education. What an incredibly weird way of looking at one's life. I'll take this further: I was homeschooled and almost entirely SELF educated. That includes everything I know about programming. I've worked for 20 years and paid taxes. Explain how I owe anything to anyone.

haswell 3y ago
Fellow home schooled person and autodidact here. Our obligation to society is ongoing. It’s not as if the only benefit we enjoy is the education system that we did not utilize. A system of lesser consequence than the human knowledge the system exists to perpetuate. Knowledge that you, too, benefited from during your home/self education. When you say self taught, I assume you used some kind of books/curriculum as I did?
- w4ffl35 3y ago
  You've missed my point. Absolutely nothing is inherently owed to society. There is no obligation at all. I can live my life in a cave if I choose. The discussion need not progress past that point. However: Yes, books that were purchased by my parents, who paid their taxes.
  - haswell 3y ago
    As far as I can tell, I disagree with your point but have not missed it. > Absolutely nothing is inherently owed to society. There is no obligation at all. As a member of a social species of animal, why do you believe this to be true? > I can live my life in a cave if I choose. Living in a cave is choosing to stop participating in society. If you’re not living in a cave, and if you’re participating in discussions on HN using a computing device, you have obligations. > Yes, books that were purchased by my parents, who paid their taxes. The value of those books is not primarily monetary. Those books have utility because they are transmitting the collective knowledge of our species; ancestors whose thoughts and discoveries are the basis of our lives today. Many people never stop to consider or admit their dependence on this ancestral knowledge, or their own responsibilities as a beneficiary of it. Almost everything we come in contact with (unless you disconnect and go to that cave), comes with implied collective responsibilities. Paying taxes is the minimum legally required level of contribution, but far from the only required activity to maintain a functioning society. You might say that you don’t like this society or would prefer a different one, but the only solution to these problems is to involve yourself in the process, which is the only path to changing the status quo.
    - w4ffl35 3y ago
      Originally you said I am obligated due to my education (which you also reiterate here), however you've now shifted the goal post: I am obligated to society because I gained education AND because I choose to participate in it. I say my education is moot, and I am allowed to participate in society with zero obligation. > As a member of a social species of animal, why do you believe this to be true? Because it isn't false. Where is my obligation exactly? What "obligation" does any animal have? I am most certainly an animal, but I'm an intelligent one and I choose my obligations rather than letting others choose for me. Edit to address your other points: > if you’re participating in discussions on HN using a computing device, you have obligations. No, I don't. I can do whatever I wish. > The value of those books is not primarily monetary. Those books have utility because they are transmitting the collective knowledge of our species; ancestors whose thoughts and discoveries are the basis of our lives today. Who cares? I'm obligated because they recorded their knowledge and I studied it? No, I am not obligated, I am educated. > Many people never stop to consider or admit their dependence on this ancestral knowledge, or their own responsibilities as a beneficiary of it. Almost everything we come in contact with (unless you disconnect and go to that cave), comes with implied collective responsibilities. Again, no it doesn't. This is lazy collectivist thinking. > Paying taxes is the minimum legally required level of contribution Taxation is actually theft and shouldn't be allowed. This isn't a contribution at all, it is theft by the government. > but far from the only required activity to maintain a functioning society. OK - sure. I never said it wasn't. I also don't care - it's not my problem, not my focus, not my "obligation". > You might say that you don’t like this society No, I just don't like humans. > or would prefer a different one No, I just don't like humans. > but the only solution to these problems is to involve yourself in the process Involving oneself in the process doesn't imply "obligation" > which is the only path to changing the status quo. No, not really. One can make a big splash being outside of "the process".
      - w4ffl35 3y ago
        I'll take this further since you really don't seem to understand what I'm saying: There is no such thing as an inherent ethical or moral obligation to society. There are actions and there are consequences. There are laws and there are enforcers. Without enforcers there are no laws. Without consequences actions are irrelevant. Nothing is written, in law or in "moral code", which obligates a human to give away their creations because they "owe something to society", as the concept of "owing something to society" is not actually a real thing.
hilbert42 3y ago
"What an incredibly weird way of looking at one's life." Perhaps so, but there are millions who actually think that way—but that's not to say there aren't others who think like you. Moreover, such thinking about the obligations a citizens has to society and vice versa has been at the center of social contract theory (and practice) for hundreds of years. Thomas Hobbes wrote about the social contract in the mid 17th Century in his Leviathan, Rousseau in 1762 in The Social Contract —which was influential in the French Revolution, and that's just for starters. Explain how I owe anything to anyone." There's a whole branch of philosophy and political science based around that notion. Here, I couldn't even get to first base to explain why as there is so much stuff to cover.
- vbi8iBEX 3y ago
  > There's a whole branch of philosophy and political science based around that notion. Here, I couldn't even get to first base to explain why as there is so much stuff to cover. As an individual human being I reject all of it. See the rest of my comments to really understand where I'm coming from. No one owes society their creations. Edit - Since we're citing philosophy, see: Ayn Rand.
  - hilbert42 3y ago
    "see: Ayn Rand." I'd have bet on that if it weren't a certainty—no good if bookies' odds were only even money. :-) Hayek, von Mises and Friedman were friends I assume?
    - w4ffl35 3y ago
      Objectively though: no one owes anything to society. I can take my education and my creative works to my grave and the Universe doesn't care. Your original argument was from a moral high-ground that doesn't exist. > I'd have bet on that if it weren't a certainty—no good if bookies' odds were only even money. :-) I held these beliefs long before reading anything by Rand.
      - 3y ago

haswell 3y ago

Fellow home schooled person and autodidact here. Our obligation to society is ongoing. It’s not as if the only benefit we enjoy is the education system that we did not utilize. A system of lesser consequence than the human knowledge the system exists to perpetuate. Knowledge that you, too, benefited from during your home/self education. When you say self taught, I assume you used some kind of books/curriculum as I did?

w4ffl35 3y ago
You've missed my point. Absolutely nothing is inherently owed to society. There is no obligation at all. I can live my life in a cave if I choose. The discussion need not progress past that point. However: Yes, books that were purchased by my parents, who paid their taxes.
- haswell 3y ago
  As far as I can tell, I disagree with your point but have not missed it. > Absolutely nothing is inherently owed to society. There is no obligation at all. As a member of a social species of animal, why do you believe this to be true? > I can live my life in a cave if I choose. Living in a cave is choosing to stop participating in society. If you’re not living in a cave, and if you’re participating in discussions on HN using a computing device, you have obligations. > Yes, books that were purchased by my parents, who paid their taxes. The value of those books is not primarily monetary. Those books have utility because they are transmitting the collective knowledge of our species; ancestors whose thoughts and discoveries are the basis of our lives today. Many people never stop to consider or admit their dependence on this ancestral knowledge, or their own responsibilities as a beneficiary of it. Almost everything we come in contact with (unless you disconnect and go to that cave), comes with implied collective responsibilities. Paying taxes is the minimum legally required level of contribution, but far from the only required activity to maintain a functioning society. You might say that you don’t like this society or would prefer a different one, but the only solution to these problems is to involve yourself in the process, which is the only path to changing the status quo.
  - w4ffl35 3y ago
    Originally you said I am obligated due to my education (which you also reiterate here), however you've now shifted the goal post: I am obligated to society because I gained education AND because I choose to participate in it. I say my education is moot, and I am allowed to participate in society with zero obligation. > As a member of a social species of animal, why do you believe this to be true? Because it isn't false. Where is my obligation exactly? What "obligation" does any animal have? I am most certainly an animal, but I'm an intelligent one and I choose my obligations rather than letting others choose for me. Edit to address your other points: > if you’re participating in discussions on HN using a computing device, you have obligations. No, I don't. I can do whatever I wish. > The value of those books is not primarily monetary. Those books have utility because they are transmitting the collective knowledge of our species; ancestors whose thoughts and discoveries are the basis of our lives today. Who cares? I'm obligated because they recorded their knowledge and I studied it? No, I am not obligated, I am educated. > Many people never stop to consider or admit their dependence on this ancestral knowledge, or their own responsibilities as a beneficiary of it. Almost everything we come in contact with (unless you disconnect and go to that cave), comes with implied collective responsibilities. Again, no it doesn't. This is lazy collectivist thinking. > Paying taxes is the minimum legally required level of contribution Taxation is actually theft and shouldn't be allowed. This isn't a contribution at all, it is theft by the government. > but far from the only required activity to maintain a functioning society. OK - sure. I never said it wasn't. I also don't care - it's not my problem, not my focus, not my "obligation". > You might say that you don’t like this society No, I just don't like humans. > or would prefer a different one No, I just don't like humans. > but the only solution to these problems is to involve yourself in the process Involving oneself in the process doesn't imply "obligation" > which is the only path to changing the status quo. No, not really. One can make a big splash being outside of "the process".
    - w4ffl35 3y ago
      I'll take this further since you really don't seem to understand what I'm saying: There is no such thing as an inherent ethical or moral obligation to society. There are actions and there are consequences. There are laws and there are enforcers. Without enforcers there are no laws. Without consequences actions are irrelevant. Nothing is written, in law or in "moral code", which obligates a human to give away their creations because they "owe something to society", as the concept of "owing something to society" is not actually a real thing.

hilbert42 3y ago

"What an incredibly weird way of looking at one's life." Perhaps so, but there are millions who actually think that way—but that's not to say there aren't others who think like you. Moreover, such thinking about the obligations a citizens has to society and vice versa has been at the center of social contract theory (and practice) for hundreds of years. Thomas Hobbes wrote about the social contract in the mid 17th Century in his Leviathan, Rousseau in 1762 in The Social Contract —which was influential in the French Revolution, and that's just for starters. Explain how I owe anything to anyone." There's a whole branch of philosophy and political science based around that notion. Here, I couldn't even get to first base to explain why as there is so much stuff to cover.

vbi8iBEX 3y ago
> There's a whole branch of philosophy and political science based around that notion. Here, I couldn't even get to first base to explain why as there is so much stuff to cover. As an individual human being I reject all of it. See the rest of my comments to really understand where I'm coming from. No one owes society their creations. Edit - Since we're citing philosophy, see: Ayn Rand.
- hilbert42 3y ago
  "see: Ayn Rand." I'd have bet on that if it weren't a certainty—no good if bookies' odds were only even money. :-) Hayek, von Mises and Friedman were friends I assume?
  - w4ffl35 3y ago
    Objectively though: no one owes anything to society. I can take my education and my creative works to my grave and the Universe doesn't care. Your original argument was from a moral high-ground that doesn't exist. > I'd have bet on that if it weren't a certainty—no good if bookies' odds were only even money. :-) I held these beliefs long before reading anything by Rand.
    - 3y ago