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You are both right, in that they were counterculture. However: > comedians are supposed to be subversive No, that's just your preference. Jay Leno and Norm Ma

You are both right, in that they were counterculture. However: > comedians are supposed to be subversive No, that's just your preference. Jay Leno and Norm MacDonald are not subversive at all; just funny. Most of the Smothers' comedy was family-friendly, but they did push a few buttons sometimes. > I hope you talk in a more informed way about time you know Totally unwarranted.

nyczomg 3y ago
Norm MacDonald not subversive at all? Really? https://ultimateclassicrock.com/norm-macdonald-last-weekend-update/ https://ultimateclassicrock.com/norm-macdonald-last-weekend-... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_lXBLqAOW8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_lXBLqAOW8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOsfrppKd1k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOsfrppKd1k
- detritus 3y ago
  Yeah, Norm was a dark lord of comedy, but perhaps he simply didn't much wear the cloak.
- AlbertCory 3y ago
  Ooh. I stand corrected. I'd stopped watching SNL long before that.
starmftronajoll 3y ago
Leno, sure, but Norm Macdonald is one of the most subversive comics of my lifetime. A few hours perusing the archives of “I’m Not Norm” on YouTube is time well spent! https://youtube.com/@ImnotNorm?si=FNOHn2Azn-98HrKn https://youtube.com/@ImnotNorm?si=FNOHn2Azn-98HrKn
dylan604 3y ago
>Totally unwarranted. if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... With your suggestion that Norm wasn't subversive, like other replies have stated, you're not well informed yourself, so hopefully other conversations with you come from a better informed position too.
- AlbertCory 3y ago
  I watched the Smothers. How about you? Having a different opinion doesn't make you uninformed. Or didn't they teach you that in middle school? And yes, I was wrong about Norm, although doing topical satire doesn't automatically make you "subversive." Lenny Bruce was actually subversive and got arrested and sentenced to jail for it. Richard Pryor was subversive. George Carlin was sometimes subversive.
  - dylan604 3y ago
    I grew up watching the Smothers Brothers because my dad was a huge fan. So yeah, now what with your middle school I know you are but what am I level retort. Bill Hicks was my favorite subversive with his not just making marijuana legal but mandatory and suggesting that everyone should have at least one psychedelic experience (large unspoken asterisk stipulating of those that can). Squeegee that third eye clean!
    - Applejinx 3y ago
      Doug Stanhope can be unbelievably subversive: '60 Inches Of AIDS On Any Given Sunday' behaves like the insane horniness is the joke, just ridiculously over-the-top as if the things he's saying aren't still simple observation comedy. It's overblown TO make it go down easier because it's too obviously outrageous. Subversive. Probably the best and biggest subversive ever? Eddie Murphy. He went HARD in the same manner: getting you to laugh at his extremeness when the joke is, it's actually not a joke, it's something he's observed. If he just made a case for some of the stuff he brings to your attention it wouldn't go over, but pick just the right spot to go way over the top…
  - Applejinx 3y ago
    It's hard to say George Carlin was subversive when he was flat out aggressive with pretty much no attempt to sneak through any sort of idea that he could, instead, thwack you with. Late in his life, he went full rantsona, for instance his American Dream content. "There's a special club, and you ain't in it!" He wasn't joking, and wasn't wrong. I don't think it counts as subversive anymore when you're just going that hard. Nobody's gonna be fooled, they'll sign up or they'll peace out. To my mind, being properly subversive means getting over with the people… you can't really flip the table unless your feet are under it. Yeah, Richard Pryor was utterly subversive. He could seduce anybody with the openness of his comedy, but it meant something and the real target might not have been what it looked like it was.
serf 3y ago
MacDonald as 'not subversive' is a crackup. A famous schtick of his on his podcast later on was to get other comedians to accidentally joke about the 9/11 events, and then he'd frame them as monsters for making light of the situation. He got fired from SNL for railing on OJ Simpson and his executive buddies at NBC, he got 'removed' from Silverman's JASH 'collective' for making jokes about 'Arabs', and he subverted the Friar's Club roast by refusing to be rude and only saying 1940s formal-appropriate Vaudeville-act stuff. The SNL stuff was big news in entertainment at the time. He got interviewed by all the big late-night shows about it and the unfair process, was on Stern, etc etc. The whole nation sort of rallied behind him and agreed that SNL/Lorne Michaels acted unfairly at a time when the entire nation was also seemingly against Simpson. His outward clean-cut demeanor and presence is exactly what made him so subversive.
HumblyTossed 3y ago
>> I hope you talk in a more informed way about time you know > Totally unwarranted. Well, they do like their comedy "subversive", so what else could you expect?
willcipriano 3y ago
Norm being not subversive on the view: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3PP_SWHUQQ https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3PP_SWHUQQ
JohnBooty 3y ago
Norm MacDonald are not subversive at all Ahahahaha WHAT

nyczomg 3y ago

Norm MacDonald not subversive at all? Really? https://ultimateclassicrock.com/norm-macdonald-last-weekend-update/ https://ultimateclassicrock.com/norm-macdonald-last-weekend-... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_lXBLqAOW8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_lXBLqAOW8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOsfrppKd1k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOsfrppKd1k

detritus 3y ago
Yeah, Norm was a dark lord of comedy, but perhaps he simply didn't much wear the cloak.
AlbertCory 3y ago
Ooh. I stand corrected. I'd stopped watching SNL long before that.

starmftronajoll 3y ago

Leno, sure, but Norm Macdonald is one of the most subversive comics of my lifetime. A few hours perusing the archives of “I’m Not Norm” on YouTube is time well spent! https://youtube.com/@ImnotNorm?si=FNOHn2Azn-98HrKn https://youtube.com/@ImnotNorm?si=FNOHn2Azn-98HrKn

dylan604 3y ago

>Totally unwarranted. if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... With your suggestion that Norm wasn't subversive, like other replies have stated, you're not well informed yourself, so hopefully other conversations with you come from a better informed position too.

AlbertCory 3y ago
I watched the Smothers. How about you? Having a different opinion doesn't make you uninformed. Or didn't they teach you that in middle school? And yes, I was wrong about Norm, although doing topical satire doesn't automatically make you "subversive." Lenny Bruce was actually subversive and got arrested and sentenced to jail for it. Richard Pryor was subversive. George Carlin was sometimes subversive.
- dylan604 3y ago
  I grew up watching the Smothers Brothers because my dad was a huge fan. So yeah, now what with your middle school I know you are but what am I level retort. Bill Hicks was my favorite subversive with his not just making marijuana legal but mandatory and suggesting that everyone should have at least one psychedelic experience (large unspoken asterisk stipulating of those that can). Squeegee that third eye clean!
  - Applejinx 3y ago
    Doug Stanhope can be unbelievably subversive: '60 Inches Of AIDS On Any Given Sunday' behaves like the insane horniness is the joke, just ridiculously over-the-top as if the things he's saying aren't still simple observation comedy. It's overblown TO make it go down easier because it's too obviously outrageous. Subversive. Probably the best and biggest subversive ever? Eddie Murphy. He went HARD in the same manner: getting you to laugh at his extremeness when the joke is, it's actually not a joke, it's something he's observed. If he just made a case for some of the stuff he brings to your attention it wouldn't go over, but pick just the right spot to go way over the top…
- Applejinx 3y ago
  It's hard to say George Carlin was subversive when he was flat out aggressive with pretty much no attempt to sneak through any sort of idea that he could, instead, thwack you with. Late in his life, he went full rantsona, for instance his American Dream content. "There's a special club, and you ain't in it!" He wasn't joking, and wasn't wrong. I don't think it counts as subversive anymore when you're just going that hard. Nobody's gonna be fooled, they'll sign up or they'll peace out. To my mind, being properly subversive means getting over with the people… you can't really flip the table unless your feet are under it. Yeah, Richard Pryor was utterly subversive. He could seduce anybody with the openness of his comedy, but it meant something and the real target might not have been what it looked like it was.

serf 3y ago

MacDonald as 'not subversive' is a crackup. A famous schtick of his on his podcast later on was to get other comedians to accidentally joke about the 9/11 events, and then he'd frame them as monsters for making light of the situation. He got fired from SNL for railing on OJ Simpson and his executive buddies at NBC, he got 'removed' from Silverman's JASH 'collective' for making jokes about 'Arabs', and he subverted the Friar's Club roast by refusing to be rude and only saying 1940s formal-appropriate Vaudeville-act stuff. The SNL stuff was big news in entertainment at the time. He got interviewed by all the big late-night shows about it and the unfair process, was on Stern, etc etc. The whole nation sort of rallied behind him and agreed that SNL/Lorne Michaels acted unfairly at a time when the entire nation was also seemingly against Simpson. His outward clean-cut demeanor and presence is exactly what made him so subversive.

HumblyTossed 3y ago

>> I hope you talk in a more informed way about time you know > Totally unwarranted. Well, they do like their comedy "subversive", so what else could you expect?

willcipriano 3y ago

Norm being not subversive on the view: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3PP_SWHUQQ https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3PP_SWHUQQ

JohnBooty 3y ago

Norm MacDonald are not subversive at all Ahahahaha WHAT