8 ms·

Map labels are complicated and Wikidata is (in general) a better place than OSM to sort that out on the data level. Consider all the various name tags in OSM

Map labels are complicated and Wikidata is (in general) a better place than OSM to sort that out on the data level. Consider all the various *name* tags in OSM and how they are (mis-)used to please specific renderers and geocoders. E.g. do you apply (semi-)standard abbreviations of street names or do you write names in full so that they fill the map? It's fuzzy in OSM: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Abbreviations https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Abbreviations (I'm all for everyone using the map style that works the best for them - after all, it's open data and open source.)

maxerickson 3y ago
Using the full names isn't to 'fill the map', it's because the process of going from full name to abbreviation has a lot less ambiguity than going from abbreviation to full name. Seems the search box is tripping on that (not considering places on North 14th Street for a search like N 14th St).
- tuukkah 3y ago
  The full names will be too much in some cases, and there is no abbreviation algorithm that will work everywhere (OSM is a global project). Similarly, "N 14th St" has no meaning in most of the world. Hence, it's complicated and not "moronic" e.g. to make use of Wikidata for labels and to use external datasets to improve geocoding.
  - maxerickson 3y ago
    An algorithm that uses location and other hints to detect language will probably come pretty close to working everywhere. I'm not really arguing with you, just questioned the 'fill the map' characterization and pointed out the more fundamental motivation.
- xobs 3y ago
  Completely unrelated, but Google Maps seems to have (or had) a rule in place to expand "Int" to "Interchange". Meaning here in Singapore there are a lot of local bus interchanges that get labels like "Bedok International".
jaimex2 3y ago
OSMAnd seems to do a good job, how does that handle it?
- Freak_NL 3y ago
  OSMAnd uses the data from OpenStreetMap itself, and doesn't add any labels from Wikidata when a translation is missing. This is good, because a place name without an explicit name in some other language (i.e., most villages worldwide) won't get some made up name entered on Wikipedia and picked up in Wikidata automatically at some point as they are sister projects. Names don't always have exonyms.
Freak_NL 3y ago
If a name tag is broken in OpenStreetMap, I can fix it in OpenStreetMap. If a name label is broken in Wikidata, I now have to fix it there as well, and get into edit wars with folk from Wikipedia who use different rules for naming things. So not only are there now two places to fix bugs, there are also two sets of sometimes conflicting policies for naming things. This is because for Wikipedia (which is Wikidata's sister project and has a large influence on it) it may make sense to call the Belgian district of Luxembourg 'District Luxemburg' in English (which is what OSMApp does via Wikidata), but on a map this region should just be labelled 'Luxemburg' (if using English), or preferably just 'Luxembourg' (the endonym). That it is a Belgian district, and not the neighbouring country can be made sufficiently clear by styling and geography. After all, you don't expect the literal label 'New York City' for the city and 'New York State' for the US state on a map; just 'New York' for both, with styling and size indicating which is which. Any map which does want to render these names with their classification can do so by adding '(city)' or '(state)' to the label if they want to. It just shouldn't be part of the name in the data source. Map labels are complicated, so leave that complexity to a project which deals with map data; i.e., OpenStreetMap.
- pastage 3y ago
  This is a discussion more about data vs. maps, there are data purists in OSM as well. So the correct way to do it according to a large portion of OSMers would be to write out the full name. I agree with you.

Map labels are complicated and Wikidata is (in general) a better place than OSM to sort that out on the data level. Consider all the various *name* tags in OSM

maxerickson 3y ago

Using the full names isn't to 'fill the map', it's because the process of going from full name to abbreviation has a lot less ambiguity than going from abbreviation to full name. Seems the search box is tripping on that (not considering places on North 14th Street for a search like N 14th St).

tuukkah 3y ago
The full names will be too much in some cases, and there is no abbreviation algorithm that will work everywhere (OSM is a global project). Similarly, "N 14th St" has no meaning in most of the world. Hence, it's complicated and not "moronic" e.g. to make use of Wikidata for labels and to use external datasets to improve geocoding.
- maxerickson 3y ago
  An algorithm that uses location and other hints to detect language will probably come pretty close to working everywhere. I'm not really arguing with you, just questioned the 'fill the map' characterization and pointed out the more fundamental motivation.
xobs 3y ago
Completely unrelated, but Google Maps seems to have (or had) a rule in place to expand "Int" to "Interchange". Meaning here in Singapore there are a lot of local bus interchanges that get labels like "Bedok International".

jaimex2 3y ago

OSMAnd seems to do a good job, how does that handle it?

Freak_NL 3y ago
OSMAnd uses the data from OpenStreetMap itself, and doesn't add any labels from Wikidata when a translation is missing. This is good, because a place name without an explicit name in some other language (i.e., most villages worldwide) won't get some made up name entered on Wikipedia and picked up in Wikidata automatically at some point as they are sister projects. Names don't always have exonyms.

Freak_NL 3y ago

If a name tag is broken in OpenStreetMap, I can fix it in OpenStreetMap. If a name label is broken in Wikidata, I now have to fix it there as well, and get into edit wars with folk from Wikipedia who use different rules for naming things. So not only are there now two places to fix bugs, there are also two sets of sometimes conflicting policies for naming things. This is because for Wikipedia (which is Wikidata's sister project and has a large influence on it) it may make sense to call the Belgian district of Luxembourg 'District Luxemburg' in English (which is what OSMApp does via Wikidata), but on a map this region should just be labelled 'Luxemburg' (if using English), or preferably just 'Luxembourg' (the endonym). That it is a Belgian district, and not the neighbouring country can be made sufficiently clear by styling and geography. After all, you don't expect the literal label 'New York City' for the city and 'New York State' for the US state on a map; just 'New York' for both, with styling and size indicating which is which. Any map which does want to render these names with their classification can do so by adding '(city)' or '(state)' to the label if they want to. It just shouldn't be part of the name in the data source. Map labels are complicated, so leave that complexity to a project which deals with map data; i.e., OpenStreetMap.

pastage 3y ago
This is a discussion more about data vs. maps, there are data purists in OSM as well. So the correct way to do it according to a large portion of OSMers would be to write out the full name. I agree with you.