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I mean your eyes can tell you that the most ethical clothing company is still pretty darn unethical. There’s no need to throw a ticker tape parade because they

I mean your eyes can tell you that the most ethical clothing company is still pretty darn unethical. There’s no need to throw a ticker tape parade because they use a different kind of down and don’t build sweatshops (or whatever they claim they do). They’re still shipping tons of unneeded clothes around the world because wealthy people want to feel like they too are ethical. When the reality is that the ethical thing to do would be to buy less and buy used.

solardev 3y ago
I don't think this is a binary situation though... Patagonia isn't perfect, but they do a lot that no other clothing manufacturer I know does (I'm happy to be corrected here). For example: - They have free repairs for their clothing, both in-store (for simpler repairs) or they'll ship it to their Reno facility for more extensive repairs - For clothes people no longer want, they have a trade-in program where they'll resell your clothes on their Worn Wear website (https://wornwear.patagonia.com/ https://wornwear.patagonia.com/) , or in some locations, they have a rack of used clothes right inside their storefront. I've gotten many of my clothes used this way, which is amazing in outdoorsy towns without a dedicated outdoor thrift store. - They have recycling bins for clothes in all their shops for the things that can't be resold. These get sent back to corporate and some portion of it ends up as post-consumer fill in sleeping bags, etc. (I'm not sure what they do with the fibers that are too degraded). - They sponsor various environmental orgs: https://www.patagonia.com/actionworks/about/ https://www.patagonia.com/actionworks/about/. A few people I know have been recipients of these grants - They provide discounted/free products to environmental groups. In the past I've worked for a few orgs that were part of this program, and I'm personally super grateful for that (outdoor gear is expensive, and as a student or nonprofit worker, their donations helped a ton) - The founder recently changed the company into a nonprofit trust fund, whose profits are donated to climate efforts. The family gets a small share of the company (2%), but the remaining 98% gets donated to the trust. https://www.bbc.com/news/business-62906853 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-62906853 - They do annual reporting on their materials and labor sourcing: https://www.patagonia.com/our-footprint/ https://www.patagonia.com/our-footprint/ This doesn't mean they've fixed all the issues, just that they at least try to report on them and identify areas for gradual improvement (which they have been doing, incorporating more and more recycled fibers, better down sourcing, etc. over the years that I've seen). For example, their use of recycled plastics, hemp, and organic cotton have gone from 43% in 2016 to 91% in 2023 (by weight): https://www.patagonia.com/our-responsibility-programs.html https://www.patagonia.com/our-responsibility-programs.html. In particular, 95% of their polyester fabrics are now recycled: https://www.patagonia.com/our-footprint/recycled-polyester.html https://www.patagonia.com/our-footprint/recycled-polyester.h... -------- I don't know any other clothing company that does as much, do you? Of course you should go to thrift stores whenever you can, but sometimes you need specialized gear that thrift stores don't always carry. A lot of men, especially, hold on to our gear for a long time (most of these companies have lifetime guarantees) and not many make it into thrift stores in good condition to begin with. Somebody still has to make new clothes, and at least they're trying (and also sell their own used clothes). Insomuch as new clothes have to be made at all, isn't it better that the company behind them at least tries...?
- paulcole 3y ago
  My point is that it’s more ethical to not make clothes than it is to be the most ethical clothes company. Don’t laud them for doing something that’s unethical by default. There’s plenty of clothes in the world. It’s like praising the serial killer who’s killed the fewest people of all the serial killers. It’s better to just not be a serial killer.
  - solardev 3y ago
    > My point is that it’s more ethical to not make clothes than it is to be the most ethical clothes company What do you mean? Clothes don't last forever. Doesn't someone have to make new ones...? I can't tell if you're advocating for global nudism, or if you believe we can just reuse the existing clothes supply forever? Granted, probably they'll last a few decades at least. It sounds pretty extreme. I do wish there was a way to make nonplastic outdoor wear though. What did people do in the old days? It's not like hiking in the rain/snow was invented recently...
    - paulcole 3y ago
      There’s no danger of a clothes shortage if Patagonia doesn’t exist. Believing otherwise is like somebody thinking they should have kids to ensure there’s no population collapse. Plenty of people are having plenty of kids! They can sit out and it’ll be fine. > I do wish there was a way to make nonplastic outdoor wear though. What did people do in the old days? It's not like hiking in the rain/snow was invented recently... You’re taking a romantic view of something decidedly unromantic. It wasn’t fun! Sure wool has some great properties but wear a Barbour waxed canvas jacket as rain gear on a multi day hike before pining for the days of yore.

solardev 3y ago

I don't think this is a binary situation though... Patagonia isn't perfect, but they do a lot that no other clothing manufacturer I know does (I'm happy to be corrected here). For example: - They have free repairs for their clothing, both in-store (for simpler repairs) or they'll ship it to their Reno facility for more extensive repairs - For clothes people no longer want, they have a trade-in program where they'll resell your clothes on their Worn Wear website (https://wornwear.patagonia.com/ https://wornwear.patagonia.com/) , or in some locations, they have a rack of used clothes right inside their storefront. I've gotten many of my clothes used this way, which is amazing in outdoorsy towns without a dedicated outdoor thrift store. - They have recycling bins for clothes in all their shops for the things that can't be resold. These get sent back to corporate and some portion of it ends up as post-consumer fill in sleeping bags, etc. (I'm not sure what they do with the fibers that are too degraded). - They sponsor various environmental orgs: https://www.patagonia.com/actionworks/about/ https://www.patagonia.com/actionworks/about/. A few people I know have been recipients of these grants - They provide discounted/free products to environmental groups. In the past I've worked for a few orgs that were part of this program, and I'm personally super grateful for that (outdoor gear is expensive, and as a student or nonprofit worker, their donations helped a ton) - The founder recently changed the company into a nonprofit trust fund, whose profits are donated to climate efforts. The family gets a small share of the company (2%), but the remaining 98% gets donated to the trust. https://www.bbc.com/news/business-62906853 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-62906853 - They do annual reporting on their materials and labor sourcing: https://www.patagonia.com/our-footprint/ https://www.patagonia.com/our-footprint/ This doesn't mean they've fixed all the issues, just that they at least try to report on them and identify areas for gradual improvement (which they have been doing, incorporating more and more recycled fibers, better down sourcing, etc. over the years that I've seen). For example, their use of recycled plastics, hemp, and organic cotton have gone from 43% in 2016 to 91% in 2023 (by weight): https://www.patagonia.com/our-responsibility-programs.html https://www.patagonia.com/our-responsibility-programs.html. In particular, 95% of their polyester fabrics are now recycled: https://www.patagonia.com/our-footprint/recycled-polyester.html https://www.patagonia.com/our-footprint/recycled-polyester.h... -------- I don't know any other clothing company that does as much, do you? Of course you should go to thrift stores whenever you can, but sometimes you need specialized gear that thrift stores don't always carry. A lot of men, especially, hold on to our gear for a long time (most of these companies have lifetime guarantees) and not many make it into thrift stores in good condition to begin with. Somebody still has to make new clothes, and at least they're trying (and also sell their own used clothes). Insomuch as new clothes have to be made at all, isn't it better that the company behind them at least tries...?

paulcole 3y ago
My point is that it’s more ethical to not make clothes than it is to be the most ethical clothes company. Don’t laud them for doing something that’s unethical by default. There’s plenty of clothes in the world. It’s like praising the serial killer who’s killed the fewest people of all the serial killers. It’s better to just not be a serial killer.
- solardev 3y ago
  > My point is that it’s more ethical to not make clothes than it is to be the most ethical clothes company What do you mean? Clothes don't last forever. Doesn't someone have to make new ones...? I can't tell if you're advocating for global nudism, or if you believe we can just reuse the existing clothes supply forever? Granted, probably they'll last a few decades at least. It sounds pretty extreme. I do wish there was a way to make nonplastic outdoor wear though. What did people do in the old days? It's not like hiking in the rain/snow was invented recently...
  - paulcole 3y ago
    There’s no danger of a clothes shortage if Patagonia doesn’t exist. Believing otherwise is like somebody thinking they should have kids to ensure there’s no population collapse. Plenty of people are having plenty of kids! They can sit out and it’ll be fine. > I do wish there was a way to make nonplastic outdoor wear though. What did people do in the old days? It's not like hiking in the rain/snow was invented recently... You’re taking a romantic view of something decidedly unromantic. It wasn’t fun! Sure wool has some great properties but wear a Barbour waxed canvas jacket as rain gear on a multi day hike before pining for the days of yore.