4 ms·

Ask HN: I am trying to understand the best tools for the blind on the internet

22 points by consumer451 3y ago

I had a major eyesight scare this year, and it has gotten me thinking a lot more about accessibility. Can anyone point me to the best resources which might help me understand how visually impaired users navigate the internet today? The impetus for thinking about it today was looking at a maps subreddit, and seeing how much fun people were having. The contents of the map images in the sub are very complex with lots of text data on the maps. I would imagine that blind, or near blind users, could not participate in the fun. I started to make a Custom GPT [0] to try to deal with this. The end goal being an iOS shortcut where a user could send an image to it, and get the GPT's text response. Am I re-inventing the wheel here? Am I even coming at the problem correctly? [0] https://chat.openai.com/g/g-jcyEz5uDP-image-descriptions-for-the-blind

consumer451 3y ago
Latest version of the GPT does this: https://i.redd.it/x9glb5g6j09c1.jpeg https://i.redd.it/x9glb5g6j09c1.jpeg Short Summary: A map displaying the oldest (almost) continuously operating universities in Europe, with founding years and noted operational gaps. Detailed Description: The image is a color-coded map of Europe showing the oldest universities in various countries that have been (almost) continuously functioning. The universities are indicated by dots on the map, with the year of establishment next to each dot. The map is shaded in various tones of green, possibly indicating different time periods or durations of operation. At the top, there's a title "Oldest (almost) continuously functioning universities in Europe". Below the title, a note clarifies that these universities have been in operation with gaps less than 50 years at a time. Here is the text on the map, from oldest to newest: University of Bologna - 1088 University of Paris - 1150 (1200)* University of Oxford - 1167 University of Cambridge - 1209 University of Salamanca - 1218 University of Montpellier - 1220 (and 1289) University of Coimbra - 1290 University of Pisa - 1343 University of Florence - 1349 Charles University in Prague - 1348 Jagiellonian University - 1364 University of Pécs - 1367 Ruprecht Karl University of Heidelberg - 1386 University of Vienna - 1365 University of Ferrara - 1391 University of Leipzig - 1409 University of St Andrews - 1413 University of Rostock - 1419 University of Barcelona - 1450 University of Glasgow - 1451 University of Greifswald - 1456 University of Freiburg - 1457 University of Munich - 1472 Uppsala University - 1477 University of Tübingen - 1477 University of Copenhagen - 1479 University of Genoa - 1481 University of Wittenberg - 1502 University of Leipzig - 1409 Dublin (Trinity College) - 1592 University of Edinburgh - 1583 Babeș-Bolyai University - 1581 University of Groningen - 1614 University of Oslo - 1811 University of Helsinki - 1640 University of Tartu - 1632 Lviv University - 1661 University of Zagreb - 1669 University of Innsbruck - 1669 Istanbul Technical University - 1773 Vilnius University - 1579 University of Münster - 1780 National and Kapodistrian University of Athens - 1837 State Agrarian University of Moldova - 1933 University of Iceland - 1911 Faroe Islands - 1965 University of Luxembourg - 2003 University of Liechtenstein - 1961 University of San Marino - 1986 University of Pristina - 1969 Ss. Cyril and Methodius University of Skopje - 1946 International University of Monaco - 1986 Gibraltar - 2015 Malta - 1769 A footnote on the map states: "*The current University of Paris might not be considered the successor to the old one, which was split in 1970. Other openings include Toulouse II (1229) and Montpellier (1220 or 1289)." The map has a label at the bottom right corner with the source as "Wikipedia, Websites of universities" and a watermark "efisha.com". The map also denotes centuries with markers on the left side, from the 11th century to the 21st century, suggesting the periods when these universities were established. "I am not perfect at this yet, some data and sorting might not be perfect."
helph67 3y ago
Perhaps this site may provide some ideas? https://www.visionaustralia.org/technology-products/resources https://www.visionaustralia.org/technology-products/resource...
dgellow 3y ago
I would recommend you to start by learning to use a screen reader, then dig into accessibility APIs for both your OS and browser. That should give you a better understanding of the blind person’s experience. I’ve been trying a few times to learn to use iOS accessibility features because I’m curious about the topic, you can find good tutorials on YouTube and videos of people sharing their workflows and tooling. I wouldn’t look into developing a tool before having a good understanding of the subject, it’s pretty likely you will be misunderstanding what would be useful or not for a blind person.
solardev 3y ago
Nielsen Norman, the UX group, has a good starter kit for thinking about the issues: https://www.nngroup.com/articles/accessibility-inclusivity-study-guide/ https://www.nngroup.com/articles/accessibility-inclusivity-s... WebAIM, a web accessibility group, has a good survey about the tools involved: https://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey9/ https://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey9/ They also have a good overview intro of web accessibility fr the visually impaired: https://webaim.org/articles/visual/ https://webaim.org/articles/visual/ If this is your first time trying to address visual impairment online, it might help to get some training or consultation with them: https://webaim.org/services/ https://webaim.org/services/ It's helpful to discuss your proposals with real users with visual disabilities rather than assuming you know what's best.
- consumer451 3y ago
  Thank you very much for your thorough response. I will read up on on all of this. > It's helpful to discuss your proposals with real users with visual disabilities rather than assuming you know what's best. I agree 100%. This is Customer Development 101. [0] I have tried to reach out on r/blind, but my post was removed because the mods thought that I was trying to do a survey. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Customer_development https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Customer_development
  - consumer451 3y ago
    After waiting a bit, I got an excellent response from an r/blind mod: > Hi, > There are already many people working on these exact tools. In fact, this one is an entire Chrome extension. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENsGHmhk60w&ab_channel=AccessibilityNerd https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENsGHmhk60w&ab_channel=Acces... > Also, check out apps like SeeingAI, BeMyAI, and Lookout If anyone here could expand upon, or simply contribute to these products, it seems like that this would be time well spent.
kinow 3y ago
>I had a major eyesight scare this year, and it has gotten me thinking a lot more about accessibility. Thankfully it was just a scare. My family has some eyesight issues, so I've always been curious on how visually impaired users navigate the web. It helps that in my high school there was a boy that was born blind. He used a braille machine during class, until he got a thinkpad configured with a screen reader. Later he joined a bank working in IT, and I remember he already knew Linux very well during high school (early 00's). >Can anyone point me to the best resources which might help me understand how visually impaired users navigate the internet today? I use the Wave accessibility tool [1] on my websites, and whenever I am reviewing pull requests for $work, or Apache, Jenkins (it&plugins do very poorly), and other Open Source sites (latest one was the CWL Conf 2024 [2]). Another thing I use to test accessibility is try to navigate the site with Orca (with/without looking at the screen). You can install that on any Linux machine, completely free. Microsoft screen reader is better than Orca, or at least was the last time I checked it. But I am a Linux user -- and plan to continue being even if my eyesight gets really bad. It is relatively easy to learn Orca, you just need to learn a few shortcuts, and the commands to enable/disable it. And testing web sites will help you both learn to use the screen reader, while also helping other visually impaired users if you submit bugs/pull requests. Here's a great video that shows what you hear when you open a browser with Orca enabled/running: [3]. If you are running Linux just try typing `orca`, then open a browser, and follow this link: [4]. There you can find most of the necessary key bindings to navigate a website with Orca. Give it a try and experiment how that works. I don't know much about maps, GPT, etc., but I hope Orca and these links will help you to learn more about web accessibility. [1] https://wave.webaim.org/ https://wave.webaim.org/ [2] https://github.com/common-workflow-language/cwlcon2024/pull/42 https://github.com/common-workflow-language/cwlcon2024/pull/... [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UI76P-KPZec https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UI76P-KPZec [4] https://techblog.wikimedia.org/2020/07/02/an-orca-screen-reader-tutorial/ https://techblog.wikimedia.org/2020/07/02/an-orca-screen-rea...

22 points by consumer451 3y ago

consumer451 3y ago

Latest version of the GPT does this: https://i.redd.it/x9glb5g6j09c1.jpeg https://i.redd.it/x9glb5g6j09c1.jpeg Short Summary: A map displaying the oldest (almost) continuously operating universities in Europe, with founding years and noted operational gaps. Detailed Description: The image is a color-coded map of Europe showing the oldest universities in various countries that have been (almost) continuously functioning. The universities are indicated by dots on the map, with the year of establishment next to each dot. The map is shaded in various tones of green, possibly indicating different time periods or durations of operation. At the top, there's a title "Oldest (almost) continuously functioning universities in Europe". Below the title, a note clarifies that these universities have been in operation with gaps less than 50 years at a time. Here is the text on the map, from oldest to newest: University of Bologna - 1088 University of Paris - 1150 (1200)* University of Oxford - 1167 University of Cambridge - 1209 University of Salamanca - 1218 University of Montpellier - 1220 (and 1289) University of Coimbra - 1290 University of Pisa - 1343 University of Florence - 1349 Charles University in Prague - 1348 Jagiellonian University - 1364 University of Pécs - 1367 Ruprecht Karl University of Heidelberg - 1386 University of Vienna - 1365 University of Ferrara - 1391 University of Leipzig - 1409 University of St Andrews - 1413 University of Rostock - 1419 University of Barcelona - 1450 University of Glasgow - 1451 University of Greifswald - 1456 University of Freiburg - 1457 University of Munich - 1472 Uppsala University - 1477 University of Tübingen - 1477 University of Copenhagen - 1479 University of Genoa - 1481 University of Wittenberg - 1502 University of Leipzig - 1409 Dublin (Trinity College) - 1592 University of Edinburgh - 1583 Babeș-Bolyai University - 1581 University of Groningen - 1614 University of Oslo - 1811 University of Helsinki - 1640 University of Tartu - 1632 Lviv University - 1661 University of Zagreb - 1669 University of Innsbruck - 1669 Istanbul Technical University - 1773 Vilnius University - 1579 University of Münster - 1780 National and Kapodistrian University of Athens - 1837 State Agrarian University of Moldova - 1933 University of Iceland - 1911 Faroe Islands - 1965 University of Luxembourg - 2003 University of Liechtenstein - 1961 University of San Marino - 1986 University of Pristina - 1969 Ss. Cyril and Methodius University of Skopje - 1946 International University of Monaco - 1986 Gibraltar - 2015 Malta - 1769 A footnote on the map states: "*The current University of Paris might not be considered the successor to the old one, which was split in 1970. Other openings include Toulouse II (1229) and Montpellier (1220 or 1289)." The map has a label at the bottom right corner with the source as "Wikipedia, Websites of universities" and a watermark "efisha.com". The map also denotes centuries with markers on the left side, from the 11th century to the 21st century, suggesting the periods when these universities were established. "I am not perfect at this yet, some data and sorting might not be perfect."

helph67 3y ago

Perhaps this site may provide some ideas? https://www.visionaustralia.org/technology-products/resources https://www.visionaustralia.org/technology-products/resource...

dgellow 3y ago

I would recommend you to start by learning to use a screen reader, then dig into accessibility APIs for both your OS and browser. That should give you a better understanding of the blind person’s experience. I’ve been trying a few times to learn to use iOS accessibility features because I’m curious about the topic, you can find good tutorials on YouTube and videos of people sharing their workflows and tooling. I wouldn’t look into developing a tool before having a good understanding of the subject, it’s pretty likely you will be misunderstanding what would be useful or not for a blind person.

solardev 3y ago

Nielsen Norman, the UX group, has a good starter kit for thinking about the issues: https://www.nngroup.com/articles/accessibility-inclusivity-study-guide/ https://www.nngroup.com/articles/accessibility-inclusivity-s... WebAIM, a web accessibility group, has a good survey about the tools involved: https://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey9/ https://webaim.org/projects/screenreadersurvey9/ They also have a good overview intro of web accessibility fr the visually impaired: https://webaim.org/articles/visual/ https://webaim.org/articles/visual/ If this is your first time trying to address visual impairment online, it might help to get some training or consultation with them: https://webaim.org/services/ https://webaim.org/services/ It's helpful to discuss your proposals with real users with visual disabilities rather than assuming you know what's best.

consumer451 3y ago
Thank you very much for your thorough response. I will read up on on all of this. > It's helpful to discuss your proposals with real users with visual disabilities rather than assuming you know what's best. I agree 100%. This is Customer Development 101. [0] I have tried to reach out on r/blind, but my post was removed because the mods thought that I was trying to do a survey. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Customer_development https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Customer_development
- consumer451 3y ago
  After waiting a bit, I got an excellent response from an r/blind mod: > Hi, > There are already many people working on these exact tools. In fact, this one is an entire Chrome extension. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENsGHmhk60w&ab_channel=AccessibilityNerd https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENsGHmhk60w&ab_channel=Acces... > Also, check out apps like SeeingAI, BeMyAI, and Lookout If anyone here could expand upon, or simply contribute to these products, it seems like that this would be time well spent.

kinow 3y ago

>I had a major eyesight scare this year, and it has gotten me thinking a lot more about accessibility. Thankfully it was just a scare. My family has some eyesight issues, so I've always been curious on how visually impaired users navigate the web. It helps that in my high school there was a boy that was born blind. He used a braille machine during class, until he got a thinkpad configured with a screen reader. Later he joined a bank working in IT, and I remember he already knew Linux very well during high school (early 00's). >Can anyone point me to the best resources which might help me understand how visually impaired users navigate the internet today? I use the Wave accessibility tool [1] on my websites, and whenever I am reviewing pull requests for $work, or Apache, Jenkins (it&plugins do very poorly), and other Open Source sites (latest one was the CWL Conf 2024 [2]). Another thing I use to test accessibility is try to navigate the site with Orca (with/without looking at the screen). You can install that on any Linux machine, completely free. Microsoft screen reader is better than Orca, or at least was the last time I checked it. But I am a Linux user -- and plan to continue being even if my eyesight gets really bad. It is relatively easy to learn Orca, you just need to learn a few shortcuts, and the commands to enable/disable it. And testing web sites will help you both learn to use the screen reader, while also helping other visually impaired users if you submit bugs/pull requests. Here's a great video that shows what you hear when you open a browser with Orca enabled/running: [3]. If you are running Linux just try typing `orca`, then open a browser, and follow this link: [4]. There you can find most of the necessary key bindings to navigate a website with Orca. Give it a try and experiment how that works. I don't know much about maps, GPT, etc., but I hope Orca and these links will help you to learn more about web accessibility. [1] https://wave.webaim.org/ https://wave.webaim.org/ [2] https://github.com/common-workflow-language/cwlcon2024/pull/42 https://github.com/common-workflow-language/cwlcon2024/pull/... [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UI76P-KPZec https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UI76P-KPZec [4] https://techblog.wikimedia.org/2020/07/02/an-orca-screen-reader-tutorial/ https://techblog.wikimedia.org/2020/07/02/an-orca-screen-rea...