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Honestly these kinds of posts are tiresome and unhelpful. Yes, Mozilla is different now, yes the CEO makes too much money but if more people used their browser

Honestly these kinds of posts are tiresome and unhelpful. Yes, Mozilla is different now, yes the CEO makes too much money but if more people used their browser more they might invest more in it in instead of seeing it as a money sink to satisfy people who can’t be satisfied. Seriously, Mozilla cant win. A large voice of people constantly scold Mozilla for anything it does. We’ve heard from Firefox devs on how this bash fest affects them and we expect them to crank out awesome software despite the abuse. Instead of picking the lesser of two evils they say oh, Firefox is N milliseconds slower than Chrome so I’ll use the greater of two evils. Can we stop beating a dead horse? If you don’t like Firefox or Mozilla fine but don’t act like it’s unusable as a browser. It’s fine, it works, I don’t why everyone is so bothered by minor details when their goals and clearly better than their competition. Sure it may be slow for YOU (whatever your use case is) or maybe your extensions broke but average users who rely power users to recommend a browser don’t care. If they can open Facebook and Netflix it’s fine. So use Chrome yourself and recommend Firefox to the people this crap doesn’t matter to. And maybe, if they see the numbers tick up, they’ll change course.

javajosh 3y ago
Two things can be true at once: Firefox is a great browser that needs greater market share, and the CEO pay is out-of-whack. The solution is to use the browser but a) not give money to the foundation, and b) complain and expect change.
- Riverheart 3y ago
  I said the CEO makes too much money so I don’t know what the point of your post is. I think it’s pretty clear all the complaining hasn’t done anything as this conversation has been going on for years but I don’t expect that to stop anyone from getting easy HN karma.
A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago
<< I don’t why everyone is so bothered by minor details when their goals and clearly better than their competition. I use FF is my daily driver for home stuff; work in chrome/edge. When I see things that are wrong, I point them out. We can champion FF for the good things it does and absolutely we can bash CxO club for slowly running it to the ground. << Honestly these kinds of posts are tiresome and unhelpful. Not accurate, this is likely one of the few ways we can exert some minimal level of influence over this. And besides, what did not complaining ever achieve?
- ranger_danger 3y ago
  > what did not complaining ever achieve? self-satisfaction and just being a better person
  - A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago
    Hmm. I am willing to explore it a little further. Does one become a better person simply by staying quiet?
    - Riverheart 3y ago
      You could try being supportive instead. But hey, the current strategy has worked out so well thus far, please continue until the market share reaches 0. Mitchell really seems to care about these comments. Oh wait, she probably doesn’t read HN does she? Oh, but the Firefox devs probably do. Well I’m sure they’re just as moved and powerful enough to affect the kind of change you want to see in the organization.
      - A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago
        I am supportive. Without me Mozilla, Mitchell and devs would think it is all sunshine and puppies. If anything, being supportive at any costs leads to scenarios such as the current one.
      - Levitz 3y ago
        >Oh wait, she probably doesn’t read HN does she? Oh, but the Firefox devs probably do. All the more reason to insist that Firefox is the important bit then? What does a Firefox dev get from "Ah yes sure we only care about Firefox, but if that's what Mozilla wants to do they have all my support in continuing their path to irrelevancy"
        Riverheart 3y ago
        I’m unconvinced that Firefox can compete purely by being the better browser now that Chrome exists and I hear no one complaining about Brave doing more than just a browser (crypto, ads, brave wallet, brave vpn, brave talk, brave search) so even Brendan doesn’t believe that a browser without diversification can compete and likely would have done the same stuff the current CSuite did if he were in charge. You might argue he’d have done a better job of it, picked better products but still would happen. Brendan choosing to build on Chrome instead of Firefox probably says more about Chrome’s dominance than Firefox’s technical merits. If all Firefox was lacking was better leadership improving it would’ve been easier. If it was a technical issue that’s probably money that needs spent but doesn’t move the needle which is why the current CSuite doesn’t address it either. Or maybe it was just to get away from the stigma around Firefox that doesn’t exist in Chromeland.
JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> if more people used their browser more they might invest more in it Let me donate to support Firefox. Firefox, only. Hell, she can even skim off the top for her pay. They don’t do this because it would trash the gravy train. So Firefox is held hostage to support a litany of nonsense that lets them travel to conferences to speak about AI.
- dorfsmay 3y ago
  Or split it off like they did with thunderbird.
- Riverheart 3y ago
  Okay, so what is complaining achieving here since you already acknowledge they won’t let you donate to Firefox directly? I’m not crazy about it either but I don’t lose sleep over it. It’s a browser and management could be better. I know it’s a touchy subject and people may not like to hear it but until I’m downvoted into oblivion I’m going to say this discussion is not worth rehashing time and time again. The donation suggestion is years old at this point. There is nothing new in this thread.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > what is complaining achieving here since you already acknowledge they won’t let you donate to Firefox directly? That usage isn’t what’s constraining Firefox’s resources. Management is. Use Firefox if you like it. (I do, in part.) But don’t argue that if more people use it Mozilla will give a shit; it’s already a material fraction of their revenues and they’re ignoring it.
    - Riverheart 3y ago
      I will. If usage increased enough they would. The more users they have the more important their search becomes, gives them greater leverage and an audience to market products at. Unlike Google/Microsoft/Apple, they do not have a strong platform to reach users with and need something to coalesce a consumer-centric Mozilla ecosystem around. At the moment, it is unclear how much extra money, devoted to improving what, would increase Firefox’s market share significantly and am not surprised to see them explore other options. Brave, Vivaldi, etc, don’t seem to have figured it out either. I choose not to be cynical, nor will I allow myself to be upset about it one way or another and wish others would do the same. Being negative is more likely to scare off new users/contributors than change Mozilla.
macspoofing 3y ago
>ut if more people used their browser more they might invest more in it in instead of seeing it as a money sink Did you say that Firefox is a 'money sink' for Mozilla? The thing that brings them half a billion dollars a year and corresponds to the vast majority of their revenue ... and is the only thing that gives them relevance .. to you, this is a 'money sink'?
- Riverheart 3y ago
  There is more nuance here than your comment assumes. If Firefox makes X dollars by investing Y dollars but Y+N dollars doesn’t return more money, they will spend the minimum amount on Firefox and allocate the remaining funds elsewhere because otherwise they’d be throwing money away, or so the C-Suite assumes. You think Pocket and Mozilla VPN sprung up because creating new products was easier than investing more into the golden goose? If Firefox was the end all be all that would be the obvious, safest business decision. Clearly they don’t think it is and that they can get more money through diversification. A number of people here believe that Firefox is only supported by Google so they can avoid anti trust. If that were the case they’d pay Mozilla regardless of how good/bad Firefox was wouldn’t they?
127361 3y ago
Some of us scold Mozilla because they have lost track of their original purpose which is to develop a Web browser, instead they have started to become a political advocacy organization. One that is against freedom of speech and in favor of censorship.
phpisthebest 3y ago
I dont like Mozilla, I like firefox... I am using it right now. One of the reasons firefox is dying is because they are chasing market share and not listening to the users at all. They look at Edge, Chrome, etc and try to duplicate them hoping to peel off users. They look everything under the sun but what the actual users of their actual product want... Us users they just ignore us.
- Riverheart 3y ago
  I must be seriously out of touch because I have no idea what is missing from Firefox that you can find in other browsers. Can you at least list off some stuff so I can understand why people are so upset? I know dropping XUL, plugins, performance have been issues for people. I see the changes they made as necessary to keep the codebase maintainable and improve performance. What else am I missing?

javajosh 3y ago

Two things can be true at once: Firefox is a great browser that needs greater market share, and the CEO pay is out-of-whack. The solution is to use the browser but a) not give money to the foundation, and b) complain and expect change.

Riverheart 3y ago
I said the CEO makes too much money so I don’t know what the point of your post is. I think it’s pretty clear all the complaining hasn’t done anything as this conversation has been going on for years but I don’t expect that to stop anyone from getting easy HN karma.

A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago

<< I don’t why everyone is so bothered by minor details when their goals and clearly better than their competition. I use FF is my daily driver for home stuff; work in chrome/edge. When I see things that are wrong, I point them out. We can champion FF for the good things it does and absolutely we can bash CxO club for slowly running it to the ground. << Honestly these kinds of posts are tiresome and unhelpful. Not accurate, this is likely one of the few ways we can exert some minimal level of influence over this. And besides, what did not complaining ever achieve?

ranger_danger 3y ago
> what did not complaining ever achieve? self-satisfaction and just being a better person
- A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago
  Hmm. I am willing to explore it a little further. Does one become a better person simply by staying quiet?
  - Riverheart 3y ago
    You could try being supportive instead. But hey, the current strategy has worked out so well thus far, please continue until the market share reaches 0. Mitchell really seems to care about these comments. Oh wait, she probably doesn’t read HN does she? Oh, but the Firefox devs probably do. Well I’m sure they’re just as moved and powerful enough to affect the kind of change you want to see in the organization.
    - A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago
      I am supportive. Without me Mozilla, Mitchell and devs would think it is all sunshine and puppies. If anything, being supportive at any costs leads to scenarios such as the current one.
    - Levitz 3y ago
      >Oh wait, she probably doesn’t read HN does she? Oh, but the Firefox devs probably do. All the more reason to insist that Firefox is the important bit then? What does a Firefox dev get from "Ah yes sure we only care about Firefox, but if that's what Mozilla wants to do they have all my support in continuing their path to irrelevancy"
      - Riverheart 3y ago
        I’m unconvinced that Firefox can compete purely by being the better browser now that Chrome exists and I hear no one complaining about Brave doing more than just a browser (crypto, ads, brave wallet, brave vpn, brave talk, brave search) so even Brendan doesn’t believe that a browser without diversification can compete and likely would have done the same stuff the current CSuite did if he were in charge. You might argue he’d have done a better job of it, picked better products but still would happen. Brendan choosing to build on Chrome instead of Firefox probably says more about Chrome’s dominance than Firefox’s technical merits. If all Firefox was lacking was better leadership improving it would’ve been easier. If it was a technical issue that’s probably money that needs spent but doesn’t move the needle which is why the current CSuite doesn’t address it either. Or maybe it was just to get away from the stigma around Firefox that doesn’t exist in Chromeland.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> if more people used their browser more they might invest more in it Let me donate to support Firefox. Firefox, only. Hell, she can even skim off the top for her pay. They don’t do this because it would trash the gravy train. So Firefox is held hostage to support a litany of nonsense that lets them travel to conferences to speak about AI.

dorfsmay 3y ago
Or split it off like they did with thunderbird.
Riverheart 3y ago
Okay, so what is complaining achieving here since you already acknowledge they won’t let you donate to Firefox directly? I’m not crazy about it either but I don’t lose sleep over it. It’s a browser and management could be better. I know it’s a touchy subject and people may not like to hear it but until I’m downvoted into oblivion I’m going to say this discussion is not worth rehashing time and time again. The donation suggestion is years old at this point. There is nothing new in this thread.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > what is complaining achieving here since you already acknowledge they won’t let you donate to Firefox directly? That usage isn’t what’s constraining Firefox’s resources. Management is. Use Firefox if you like it. (I do, in part.) But don’t argue that if more people use it Mozilla will give a shit; it’s already a material fraction of their revenues and they’re ignoring it.
  - Riverheart 3y ago
    I will. If usage increased enough they would. The more users they have the more important their search becomes, gives them greater leverage and an audience to market products at. Unlike Google/Microsoft/Apple, they do not have a strong platform to reach users with and need something to coalesce a consumer-centric Mozilla ecosystem around. At the moment, it is unclear how much extra money, devoted to improving what, would increase Firefox’s market share significantly and am not surprised to see them explore other options. Brave, Vivaldi, etc, don’t seem to have figured it out either. I choose not to be cynical, nor will I allow myself to be upset about it one way or another and wish others would do the same. Being negative is more likely to scare off new users/contributors than change Mozilla.

macspoofing 3y ago

>ut if more people used their browser more they might invest more in it in instead of seeing it as a money sink Did you say that Firefox is a 'money sink' for Mozilla? The thing that brings them half a billion dollars a year and corresponds to the vast majority of their revenue ... and is the only thing that gives them relevance .. to you, this is a 'money sink'?

Riverheart 3y ago
There is more nuance here than your comment assumes. If Firefox makes X dollars by investing Y dollars but Y+N dollars doesn’t return more money, they will spend the minimum amount on Firefox and allocate the remaining funds elsewhere because otherwise they’d be throwing money away, or so the C-Suite assumes. You think Pocket and Mozilla VPN sprung up because creating new products was easier than investing more into the golden goose? If Firefox was the end all be all that would be the obvious, safest business decision. Clearly they don’t think it is and that they can get more money through diversification. A number of people here believe that Firefox is only supported by Google so they can avoid anti trust. If that were the case they’d pay Mozilla regardless of how good/bad Firefox was wouldn’t they?

127361 3y ago

Some of us scold Mozilla because they have lost track of their original purpose which is to develop a Web browser, instead they have started to become a political advocacy organization. One that is against freedom of speech and in favor of censorship.

phpisthebest 3y ago

I dont like Mozilla, I like firefox... I am using it right now. One of the reasons firefox is dying is because they are chasing market share and not listening to the users at all. They look at Edge, Chrome, etc and try to duplicate them hoping to peel off users. They look everything under the sun but what the actual users of their actual product want... Us users they just ignore us.

Riverheart 3y ago
I must be seriously out of touch because I have no idea what is missing from Firefox that you can find in other browsers. Can you at least list off some stuff so I can understand why people are so upset? I know dropping XUL, plugins, performance have been issues for people. I see the changes they made as necessary to keep the codebase maintainable and improve performance. What else am I missing?