4 ms·

You have now idea how ship propulsion systems work, do you?

by hef19898 3y ago

Manuel_D 3y ago
The reason why I said "green fuel" as opposed to artificial natural gas is because hydrogen and ammonia are also potential examples of green fuel, in addition to artificial hydrocarbons. Again, how many ships have been operated with green fuel? There are LNG powered ships, but none using LMG produced in a carbon free manner. As stated above, producing artificial hydrocarbons remains out of our capabilities. Existing power to gas prototypes are really just converting biomass to methane and that method is limited by biomass availability . There are smaller prototypes for hydrogen powered ships, but nowhere near the size of the NS Savannah and they haven't been operated for nearly as long. And I can find no examples of an ammonia powered ship. Again, how many examples of green fuel powered cargo ships in commercial operation can you give? Not fossil fuel powered ships that can theoretically run off green fuel if we hand wave away the challenge of producing artificial methane. But ships actually using green fuel in the same vein that the NS Savannah actually used civilian nuclear maritime propulsion?
- hef19898 3y ago
  See, comment like that tell me you have no idea how a ship engine, or engines in general work. The problem to be solved is not the ships propulsion system, what stupidly keep repeating with nuclear reactors, but the source of the fuel for those engines we already have (developing new engines is happening day in day out, and that development will simply optimize for ammonia or hydrogen based fuels). A question which has almost zero to do with the question you so desperately want to have answered as some kind of, what, childish got ya? I get it, you area NS Savannah and nuclear fanboy, reality so simply doesn't agree with you, nor do the relevant industries.
  - Manuel_D 3y ago
    > developing new engines is happening day in day out, and that development will simply optimize for ammonia or hydrogen based fuels. Meanwhile, we already have decades of operational experience with civilian nuclear maritime propulsion. It's objectively more mature technology than green fuel. And for the record, I do indeed know hydrogen powered combustion engines work. Perhaps you're unaware that by virtue of hydrogen's much hotter combustion temperatures, it's hard to avoid producing nitrogen oxides (a greenhouse gas) as a byproduct in hydrogen combustion engines [1]. Hydrogen fuel cells are an alternative, but those have less power to volume ratios and have never been deployed at the scales required for nuclear maritime propulsion. Not only that, containing and plumbing all this liquid hydrogen is a challenge, too. There's more complexity than you think to make a hydrogen engine that doesn't emit greenhouse gases. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_internal_combustion_engine_vehicle https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_internal_combustion...
    - hef19898 3y ago
      You just refuse to get it, don't you? We way more experience eunning everything from gas turbines to ship engines than we have running civilian nuclear powered ships, I hope I don't have to explain how many non-nuclear powered ahip we have, do I? We also have more experience using biogas to be burned in combustion engines and turbines of any sort, as we do creating said biogas. We also way more experience in creating sythetic fuels, and using electrolysis to create hydrogen out of sea water (green hydrogen). Those are all solved problems, and thisbis not my opinion, as opossed to you, but facts confirmed by the very industries involved in ship building and shipping. Really pointless to discuss with ignorant tech illiterates like you.
      - Manuel_D 3y ago
        > I hope I don't have to explain how many non-nuclear powered ahip [sic] we have, do I? And again, how many of those are using hydrogen, ammonia, or synthetic methane? > We also way more experience in creating sythetic fuels, and using electrolysis to create hydrogen out of sea water (green hydrogen). Absolutely not. Almost all synthetic fuels is using biomass as an input, which does not scale. And only tiny, tiny fraction of hydrogen is produced in a carbon neutral manner. Less than 0.05%: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_hydrogen https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_hydrogen Again, if these are solved problem, show me the fleet of ships powered by hydrogen, ammonia, or synthetic methane.
        mpweiher 3y ago
        I love the double standard! Nuclear technology: if it isn't exactly the same thing we need, no matter how close, it doesn't exist. Hydrogen etc.: we have a rough analogy and no real way of getting from there to here, therefore it is proven technology.

You have now idea how ship propulsion systems work, do you?

The reason why I said "green fuel" as opposed to artificial natural gas is because hydrogen and ammonia are also potential examples of green fuel, in addition to artificial hydrocarbons. Again, how many ships have been operated with green fuel? There are LNG powered ships, but none using LMG produced in a carbon free manner. As stated above, producing artificial hydrocarbons remains out of our capabilities. Existing power to gas prototypes are really just converting biomass to methane and that method is limited by biomass availability . There are smaller prototypes for hydrogen powered ships, but nowhere near the size of the NS Savannah and they haven't been operated for nearly as long. And I can find no examples of an ammonia powered ship. Again, how many examples of green fuel powered cargo ships in commercial operation can you give? Not fossil fuel powered ships that can theoretically run off green fuel if we hand wave away the challenge of producing artificial methane. But ships actually using green fuel in the same vein that the NS Savannah actually used civilian nuclear maritime propulsion?

hef19898 3y ago
See, comment like that tell me you have no idea how a ship engine, or engines in general work. The problem to be solved is not the ships propulsion system, what stupidly keep repeating with nuclear reactors, but the source of the fuel for those engines we already have (developing new engines is happening day in day out, and that development will simply optimize for ammonia or hydrogen based fuels). A question which has almost zero to do with the question you so desperately want to have answered as some kind of, what, childish got ya? I get it, you area NS Savannah and nuclear fanboy, reality so simply doesn't agree with you, nor do the relevant industries.
- Manuel_D 3y ago
  > developing new engines is happening day in day out, and that development will simply optimize for ammonia or hydrogen based fuels. Meanwhile, we already have decades of operational experience with civilian nuclear maritime propulsion. It's objectively more mature technology than green fuel. And for the record, I do indeed know hydrogen powered combustion engines work. Perhaps you're unaware that by virtue of hydrogen's much hotter combustion temperatures, it's hard to avoid producing nitrogen oxides (a greenhouse gas) as a byproduct in hydrogen combustion engines [1]. Hydrogen fuel cells are an alternative, but those have less power to volume ratios and have never been deployed at the scales required for nuclear maritime propulsion. Not only that, containing and plumbing all this liquid hydrogen is a challenge, too. There's more complexity than you think to make a hydrogen engine that doesn't emit greenhouse gases. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_internal_combustion_engine_vehicle https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_internal_combustion...
  - hef19898 3y ago
    You just refuse to get it, don't you? We way more experience eunning everything from gas turbines to ship engines than we have running civilian nuclear powered ships, I hope I don't have to explain how many non-nuclear powered ahip we have, do I? We also have more experience using biogas to be burned in combustion engines and turbines of any sort, as we do creating said biogas. We also way more experience in creating sythetic fuels, and using electrolysis to create hydrogen out of sea water (green hydrogen). Those are all solved problems, and thisbis not my opinion, as opossed to you, but facts confirmed by the very industries involved in ship building and shipping. Really pointless to discuss with ignorant tech illiterates like you.
    - Manuel_D 3y ago
      > I hope I don't have to explain how many non-nuclear powered ahip [sic] we have, do I? And again, how many of those are using hydrogen, ammonia, or synthetic methane? > We also way more experience in creating sythetic fuels, and using electrolysis to create hydrogen out of sea water (green hydrogen). Absolutely not. Almost all synthetic fuels is using biomass as an input, which does not scale. And only tiny, tiny fraction of hydrogen is produced in a carbon neutral manner. Less than 0.05%: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_hydrogen https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_hydrogen Again, if these are solved problem, show me the fleet of ships powered by hydrogen, ammonia, or synthetic methane.
      - mpweiher 3y ago
        I love the double standard! Nuclear technology: if it isn't exactly the same thing we need, no matter how close, it doesn't exist. Hydrogen etc.: we have a rough analogy and no real way of getting from there to here, therefore it is proven technology.