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> Now they'll make contributions to India, Eastern Europe Good! There’s a billion people in India and plenty of opportunities for growth. The net benefit for

> Now they'll make contributions to India, Eastern Europe Good! There’s a billion people in India and plenty of opportunities for growth. The net benefit for all of humanity is larger if they stay there. Put another way, is it really all that great that the US drains the top talent out of India and Eastern Europe?

alephnerd 3y ago
It does when those people who leave have a chip on their shoulder due to bad experiences with the US. For example, the founder of Zoho (Sridhar Vembu - I actually lived in the same apartment complex in the Bay Area that he started Zoho at) has become a NatSec cabinet advisor to Narendra Modi's administration, and has a chip on his shoulder about his experience dealing with US immigration. It was a big reason he returned to India. Wang Huning, the Chairman of the Chinese Politburo and Xi Jinping's right hand man - soured on the US after his experience dealing with the US as a student. A good friend of mine from college in the ML space who's parents are pretty high up in the ruling party of a major SEA state has been constantly complaining to me and them about how they lost 2 chances at the F1 to H1B conversion, and every single time became more and more ambivalent about the US. They can end up returning to SEA and make a large company, but they will also have a chip on their shoulder about the US. Another good friend of mine was an Indian national who specialized in EE and Condensed Matter Physics (semiconductors type work) - even did grad school in it at a Stanford type program. He left the US to work for a major Chinese company in SEA because immigration in the US was horrid. Plenty of Israelis feel the same way now about the US due to similar experiences. The US Immigration system exudes a sense of American exceptionalism because voters say "Love it or leave it". But the people who leave end up becoming successful, but still angry at how much effort and stress was expended for naught. China is now a near peer in 2023. There's no reason to fuel anti-Americanism in India, SEA, LatAm, etc and push them to the other side.
- jimbob45 3y ago
  https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/immigration-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/immigrati... China and India combined take in less than a tenth of the immigrants the US takes in yearly. There's really no reason anyone should take their opinions on immigration seriously.
  - alephnerd 3y ago
    I think you missed the entire point of my post above. The US's biggest strength is it's soft power at the elite level. Because of bad experiences like immigration, the US has been losing influence as foreign decision makers soured on the US due to crap treatment.
    - Clubber 3y ago
      >Because of bad experiences like immigration, the US has been losing influence as foreign decision makers soured on the US due to crap treatment. So what?
      - alephnerd 3y ago
        Well, the elite in formerly pro-American countries like Thailand, Turkey, Malaysia, Indonesia, and Brazil start turning to competitors like China or Russia, or deciding to go it on their own. Countries like India or Vietnam only began starting to warm to the US because of the diaspora. If the diaspora gets treated like shit, anti-Americanism begins to breed. A similar thing happened in China in the 2010s.
        selimthegrim 3y ago
        I see you omitted Pak from this list. Was it an exclusive list?
        alephnerd 3y ago
        Pakistan leaned pro-China since the 1960s after Ayub Khan normalized relations with China over Aksai Chin and Pakistan helped negotiate the Sino-US Pact, but fully pivoted after Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto became PM, as he had a good working relationship with Mao [4] The Pakistani nuclear program was jumpstarted by PLA technology transfers in the 1970s [0][5], Pakistani Tank Technology like Al-Khalid are results of PLA tech transfers in the early 1990s [1], Pakistan began adopting Chinese fighter jet IP in the early 1990s [2], and the entire indigenous missles program in Pakistan began thanks to Chinese IP transfers in the 80s [3] The US-Pakistan relationship was always transactional and surface level. Chinese SOEs would at least invest in Military affiliated companies like Heavy Industries Taxila, Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Khan Research Laboratories, Global Industrial Defence Solutions, and National Defence Complex The countries in the list abovr had a relationship with the US that was similar to that between China-Pakistan, but began pivoting away from the US in the 2010s. [0] - https://www.jstor.org/stable/41394229 https://www.jstor.org/stable/41394229 [1] - https://www.dawn.com/news/1217909 https://www.dawn.com/news/1217909 [2] - https://web.archive.org/web/20121021154725/http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1990/1990%20-%200672.html?search=Sabre%20II https://web.archive.org/web/20121021154725/http://www.flight... [3] - https://web.archive.org/web/20081007232310/http://www.wisconsinproject.org/countries/pakistan/pak-help-missiles.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20081007232310/http://www.wiscon... [4] - https://www.nytimes.com/1972/02/02/archives/bhutto-confers-with-mao-and-lauds-results-of-his-china-visit.html https://www.nytimes.com/1972/02/02/archives/bhutto-confers-w... [5] - https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB114/ https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB114/
- matrix87 3y ago
  > The US Immigration system exudes a sense of American exceptionalism because voters say "Love it or leave it". But the people who leave end up becoming successful, but still angry at how much effort and stress was expended for naught. That's funny. I guess every visa holder is some little genius doing particle physics work You're going out of your way to give very specific anecdotes here, the average level of talent I've met on a visa is something very easily matched domestically. It's pretty hilarious actually, some of them can't actually program and have an SWE job title
  - geodel 3y ago
    Great point. If out of many million immigrants few brilliant ones went back due to bad experience and achieved great success back home, I'd say it is excellent system already for US in terms of overall people chose to stay and people went back to great success.
    - alephnerd 3y ago
      > achieved great success back home And then begin lobbying against the United States.

alephnerd 3y ago

It does when those people who leave have a chip on their shoulder due to bad experiences with the US. For example, the founder of Zoho (Sridhar Vembu - I actually lived in the same apartment complex in the Bay Area that he started Zoho at) has become a NatSec cabinet advisor to Narendra Modi's administration, and has a chip on his shoulder about his experience dealing with US immigration. It was a big reason he returned to India. Wang Huning, the Chairman of the Chinese Politburo and Xi Jinping's right hand man - soured on the US after his experience dealing with the US as a student. A good friend of mine from college in the ML space who's parents are pretty high up in the ruling party of a major SEA state has been constantly complaining to me and them about how they lost 2 chances at the F1 to H1B conversion, and every single time became more and more ambivalent about the US. They can end up returning to SEA and make a large company, but they will also have a chip on their shoulder about the US. Another good friend of mine was an Indian national who specialized in EE and Condensed Matter Physics (semiconductors type work) - even did grad school in it at a Stanford type program. He left the US to work for a major Chinese company in SEA because immigration in the US was horrid. Plenty of Israelis feel the same way now about the US due to similar experiences. The US Immigration system exudes a sense of American exceptionalism because voters say "Love it or leave it". But the people who leave end up becoming successful, but still angry at how much effort and stress was expended for naught. China is now a near peer in 2023. There's no reason to fuel anti-Americanism in India, SEA, LatAm, etc and push them to the other side.

jimbob45 3y ago
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/immigration-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/immigrati... China and India combined take in less than a tenth of the immigrants the US takes in yearly. There's really no reason anyone should take their opinions on immigration seriously.
- alephnerd 3y ago
  I think you missed the entire point of my post above. The US's biggest strength is it's soft power at the elite level. Because of bad experiences like immigration, the US has been losing influence as foreign decision makers soured on the US due to crap treatment.
  - Clubber 3y ago
    >Because of bad experiences like immigration, the US has been losing influence as foreign decision makers soured on the US due to crap treatment. So what?
    - alephnerd 3y ago
      Well, the elite in formerly pro-American countries like Thailand, Turkey, Malaysia, Indonesia, and Brazil start turning to competitors like China or Russia, or deciding to go it on their own. Countries like India or Vietnam only began starting to warm to the US because of the diaspora. If the diaspora gets treated like shit, anti-Americanism begins to breed. A similar thing happened in China in the 2010s.
      - selimthegrim 3y ago
        I see you omitted Pak from this list. Was it an exclusive list?
        alephnerd 3y ago
        Pakistan leaned pro-China since the 1960s after Ayub Khan normalized relations with China over Aksai Chin and Pakistan helped negotiate the Sino-US Pact, but fully pivoted after Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto became PM, as he had a good working relationship with Mao [4] The Pakistani nuclear program was jumpstarted by PLA technology transfers in the 1970s [0][5], Pakistani Tank Technology like Al-Khalid are results of PLA tech transfers in the early 1990s [1], Pakistan began adopting Chinese fighter jet IP in the early 1990s [2], and the entire indigenous missles program in Pakistan began thanks to Chinese IP transfers in the 80s [3] The US-Pakistan relationship was always transactional and surface level. Chinese SOEs would at least invest in Military affiliated companies like Heavy Industries Taxila, Pakistan Aeronautical Complex, Khan Research Laboratories, Global Industrial Defence Solutions, and National Defence Complex The countries in the list abovr had a relationship with the US that was similar to that between China-Pakistan, but began pivoting away from the US in the 2010s. [0] - https://www.jstor.org/stable/41394229 https://www.jstor.org/stable/41394229 [1] - https://www.dawn.com/news/1217909 https://www.dawn.com/news/1217909 [2] - https://web.archive.org/web/20121021154725/http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1990/1990%20-%200672.html?search=Sabre%20II https://web.archive.org/web/20121021154725/http://www.flight... [3] - https://web.archive.org/web/20081007232310/http://www.wisconsinproject.org/countries/pakistan/pak-help-missiles.htm https://web.archive.org/web/20081007232310/http://www.wiscon... [4] - https://www.nytimes.com/1972/02/02/archives/bhutto-confers-with-mao-and-lauds-results-of-his-china-visit.html https://www.nytimes.com/1972/02/02/archives/bhutto-confers-w... [5] - https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB114/ https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB114/
matrix87 3y ago
> The US Immigration system exudes a sense of American exceptionalism because voters say "Love it or leave it". But the people who leave end up becoming successful, but still angry at how much effort and stress was expended for naught. That's funny. I guess every visa holder is some little genius doing particle physics work You're going out of your way to give very specific anecdotes here, the average level of talent I've met on a visa is something very easily matched domestically. It's pretty hilarious actually, some of them can't actually program and have an SWE job title
- geodel 3y ago
  Great point. If out of many million immigrants few brilliant ones went back due to bad experience and achieved great success back home, I'd say it is excellent system already for US in terms of overall people chose to stay and people went back to great success.
  - alephnerd 3y ago
    > achieved great success back home And then begin lobbying against the United States.