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> We should be asking why he felt forced to occupy Ukraine That's a hell of a take, I will give you that. I am not even sure where to start off with it. Lookin

> We should be asking why he felt forced to occupy Ukraine That's a hell of a take, I will give you that. I am not even sure where to start off with it. Looking back to europe's past. Poor hitler was forced to attack poland and rest of europe due to Treaty of Versailles. Helpless uncle stalin did same as his oppressed people buckled to outside influences. Your statement is hair away if not already trying to justify the invasion. > The issue I have is that "Putin wanted to occupy Ukraine" is too simplistic Its simplistic but the reasons that caused it are more complicated. For one putin is dreaming of recreating ussr. He made many statements about it, he wrote an academic paper about it too. His power is slipping, he needed a distraction, a win. Dictators need to perpetuate image of being strong and successful - putin riding a bear with AK waving russian flag. That image was degrading as putin's popularity was waining. Natural resource grab. The anexed republic are rich in new oil and other heavy industry. New source of money for putin and his mafia to loot. Growing internal opposition, Navalny while not such saint himself exposed and fought image of putin as beloved ruler

roenxi 3y ago
1) The Treaty of Versailles led directly into to WWII. At the time, I would have been strongly with Keynes - it was a stupid treaty, it caused massive amounts of damage, the victors should have negotiated a fair peace and the allied powers may as well have started re-arming immediately on the assumption that war was coming. If you assumed German policy was motivated by some level of cause-and-effect it is hard to avoid that treaty being an expensive mistake. And in the aftermath of WWII, note that the policies were occupation and rebuilding. Indeed, the US's learning "don't do another Versailles" lead to the peaceful reconstruction of Japan and Germany in a way that should be the gold standard for every post-war strategy. 2) Your statement is hair away if not already trying to justify the invasion. If you take a holistic view, you'd probably guess (correctly) that I think this invasion is unjustified, but is in the same class of unjustified invasions as Iraq or Afghanistan - unjustified, they happen from time to time and the best that can be done is just calm the situation down ASAP. It was always a better option to go with more diplomacy and the US should be assisting in that. But the Ukraine invasion wasn't a flight of fancy, everyone who has looked at the topic seriously agrees there is a long backstory of build ups. The only real debate point is which ones are more significant. I think US pressure, since the US is the most powerful entity involved in the war there and it is unlikely that started with Russia crossing the border.
- me_me_me 3y ago
  its a circular logic. Nobody has any agency we are forced to do stuff due to external factors. Ukraine using its puppet US forced poor russia to attack them.Holocaust was jew's fault, and twin towers crashed into planes. Truth is a lie, lie is a truth. A quintessential russian credo. You are dressing simple victim blaming in fancy paragraphs, but it doesnt change your twisted logic.
  - roenxi 3y ago
    Generally speaking, the most agency goes to the most powerful entity. So in this case, the most agency is held roughly by the US, then the EU, then Russia, then Ukraine in that order.

roenxi 3y ago

1) The Treaty of Versailles led directly into to WWII. At the time, I would have been strongly with Keynes - it was a stupid treaty, it caused massive amounts of damage, the victors should have negotiated a fair peace and the allied powers may as well have started re-arming immediately on the assumption that war was coming. If you assumed German policy was motivated by some level of cause-and-effect it is hard to avoid that treaty being an expensive mistake. And in the aftermath of WWII, note that the policies were occupation and rebuilding. Indeed, the US's learning "don't do another Versailles" lead to the peaceful reconstruction of Japan and Germany in a way that should be the gold standard for every post-war strategy. 2) Your statement is hair away if not already trying to justify the invasion. If you take a holistic view, you'd probably guess (correctly) that I think this invasion is unjustified, but is in the same class of unjustified invasions as Iraq or Afghanistan - unjustified, they happen from time to time and the best that can be done is just calm the situation down ASAP. It was always a better option to go with more diplomacy and the US should be assisting in that. But the Ukraine invasion wasn't a flight of fancy, everyone who has looked at the topic seriously agrees there is a long backstory of build ups. The only real debate point is which ones are more significant. I think US pressure, since the US is the most powerful entity involved in the war there and it is unlikely that started with Russia crossing the border.

me_me_me 3y ago
its a circular logic. Nobody has any agency we are forced to do stuff due to external factors. Ukraine using its puppet US forced poor russia to attack them.Holocaust was jew's fault, and twin towers crashed into planes. Truth is a lie, lie is a truth. A quintessential russian credo. You are dressing simple victim blaming in fancy paragraphs, but it doesnt change your twisted logic.
- roenxi 3y ago
  Generally speaking, the most agency goes to the most powerful entity. So in this case, the most agency is held roughly by the US, then the EU, then Russia, then Ukraine in that order.