12 ms·

So basically you only have open engineering positions in the same few markets that every other tech company does and then you complain when you can't find enoug

So basically you only have open engineering positions in the same few markets that every other tech company does and then you complain when you can't find enough engineers. Engineering talent doesn't only exist on the coasts, despite startup tech culture pretending it does.

alephnerd 3y ago
We listed all these jobs remotely. There just aren't that many engineers who know OS Internals, eBPF, or XDP in Indiana compared to Tel Aviv or Bangalore.
- remarkEon 3y ago
  That is a policy problem. Opening up more immigration makes that problem worse, not better. It should be a question that everyone asks: why do US Universities not create an adequate supply of workers to meet the demand of the market? No one seems to care and the solution is always “just do more immigration”. Makes no sense.
  - alephnerd 3y ago
    I worked on the policy side before I entered tech. You can't "command economy" human capital. It just doesn't work. Upskilling has a 5-10 year long lag time. Immigration is the only reason America hasn't stumbled like Europe, Japan, or Korea demographically.
    - remarkEon 3y ago
      >Upskilling has a 5-10 year long lag time. So what? Again, this is a pipeline problem, that can be influenced and addressed via policy. I'm not trying to "command economy" anything. It's a problem that companies, and increasingly universities, don't think that it's a huge issue there not being enough home-grown citizens to fill these roles (a claim I find to be dubious at best). That is definitely something that policy can be used to fix. >Immigration is the only reason America hasn't stumbled like Europe, Japan, or Korea demographically. I don't know what this is supposed to mean. You want some demographic growth target to be hit? Europe has many countries in it, but mentioning Japan and Korea implies you have noticed the birth rates there. Well, I think the wrong question is being asked in that situation as well. If people aren't having babies, why? What changed? What policy options are there to fix that problem? Thinking that "just import a new workforce" fixes that is extremely weird to me, especially when they are coming from places that are not exactly culturally proximate to the places they are going, to say the least.
  - hasty_pudding 3y ago
    The industry is so huge thats impossible to teach every aspect of the tech industry. The universities teach widely applicable curriculum. Companies should train employees, simple as.
  - bluecheese452 3y ago
    They do. Companies just prefer to hire immigrants willing to work twice as long for half the pay.
- hasty_pudding 3y ago
  I guarantee you theres tons of engineers with backgrounds in O.S./Networking that could learn those things very quickly. I bet most people working in it learned on the job. The certainly dont teach every single specific detail of the entire tech industry in universities. This is just gaslighting.
  - alephnerd 3y ago
    > could learn those things very quickly Maybe. We didn't have the time to risk on hiring a dud in an industry as competitive as Cybersecurity. When competing with Israeli and Indian companies who are able to tap the Israeli, Eastern European, and Indian talent scene where such skills are much more common, we don't have the time to risk timelines falling behind.
    - hasty_pudding 3y ago
      Oh such fear mongering. With an decent background shouldnt take someone too long to get up to speed and that time isnt going to break the company. Its what they do in other countries. lol You clearly have with an agenda.
  - bluecheese452 3y ago
    But none willing to work at the wages and working conditions that company is offering.
    - alephnerd 3y ago
      > 200-300k base with 15% annual bonus and equity ($300k-750k when I was working at public companies. I can't speak to my portfolio company's equity practices) is not a shit wage That was what we were offering, but we were also demanding on quality and skill required. We ended up getting some top performers in Israel and India for a fraction, despite being ready to pay the above.
      - bluecheese452 3y ago
allemagne 3y ago
Do companies have a moral obligation to distribute jobs geographically? Assuming that the issue is that these positions weren't remote then if they decided that they're better served by workers that live locally then they're either right and you're asking them to harm their own interests for yours or they're wrong and they're just leaving money on the table for a competitor. If they aren't harmed for giving up a competitive edge then that monopoly power to just ignore the market is the actual problem. Either way, work visas isn't even close to the most salient problem. Restrict them and who's to say how startups will find loopholes to avoid hiring who we want them to hire. Let's just cut out all the messiness and cut them checks directly. Call it reparations for the coasts ignoring the good honest midwest American talent all these years.
- alephnerd 3y ago
  > Restrict them and who's to say how startups will find loopholes We'll just open offices in Israel, Eastern Europe, and India instead and pay 70% of a US salary. It already started happening in 2019, and avalanched during the pandemic.
  - bluecheese452 3y ago
    The obvious response to that is to not allow companies that outsource jobs to sell in the domestic market.
    - alephnerd 3y ago
      And then those companies sell in other countries. When the US banned Israeli companies from selling military IP to China, they began selling to India. Drone tech saw a similar impact, hence why Chinese and Turkish Drone companies are outcompeting American ones in both commercial and defense applications.
      - bluecheese452 3y ago
        Good let them.

alephnerd 3y ago

We listed all these jobs remotely. There just aren't that many engineers who know OS Internals, eBPF, or XDP in Indiana compared to Tel Aviv or Bangalore.

remarkEon 3y ago
That is a policy problem. Opening up more immigration makes that problem worse, not better. It should be a question that everyone asks: why do US Universities not create an adequate supply of workers to meet the demand of the market? No one seems to care and the solution is always “just do more immigration”. Makes no sense.
- alephnerd 3y ago
  I worked on the policy side before I entered tech. You can't "command economy" human capital. It just doesn't work. Upskilling has a 5-10 year long lag time. Immigration is the only reason America hasn't stumbled like Europe, Japan, or Korea demographically.
  - remarkEon 3y ago
    >Upskilling has a 5-10 year long lag time. So what? Again, this is a pipeline problem, that can be influenced and addressed via policy. I'm not trying to "command economy" anything. It's a problem that companies, and increasingly universities, don't think that it's a huge issue there not being enough home-grown citizens to fill these roles (a claim I find to be dubious at best). That is definitely something that policy can be used to fix. >Immigration is the only reason America hasn't stumbled like Europe, Japan, or Korea demographically. I don't know what this is supposed to mean. You want some demographic growth target to be hit? Europe has many countries in it, but mentioning Japan and Korea implies you have noticed the birth rates there. Well, I think the wrong question is being asked in that situation as well. If people aren't having babies, why? What changed? What policy options are there to fix that problem? Thinking that "just import a new workforce" fixes that is extremely weird to me, especially when they are coming from places that are not exactly culturally proximate to the places they are going, to say the least.
- hasty_pudding 3y ago
  The industry is so huge thats impossible to teach every aspect of the tech industry. The universities teach widely applicable curriculum. Companies should train employees, simple as.
- bluecheese452 3y ago
  They do. Companies just prefer to hire immigrants willing to work twice as long for half the pay.
hasty_pudding 3y ago
I guarantee you theres tons of engineers with backgrounds in O.S./Networking that could learn those things very quickly. I bet most people working in it learned on the job. The certainly dont teach every single specific detail of the entire tech industry in universities. This is just gaslighting.
- alephnerd 3y ago
  > could learn those things very quickly Maybe. We didn't have the time to risk on hiring a dud in an industry as competitive as Cybersecurity. When competing with Israeli and Indian companies who are able to tap the Israeli, Eastern European, and Indian talent scene where such skills are much more common, we don't have the time to risk timelines falling behind.
  - hasty_pudding 3y ago
    Oh such fear mongering. With an decent background shouldnt take someone too long to get up to speed and that time isnt going to break the company. Its what they do in other countries. lol You clearly have with an agenda.
- bluecheese452 3y ago
  But none willing to work at the wages and working conditions that company is offering.
  - alephnerd 3y ago
    > 200-300k base with 15% annual bonus and equity ($300k-750k when I was working at public companies. I can't speak to my portfolio company's equity practices) is not a shit wage That was what we were offering, but we were also demanding on quality and skill required. We ended up getting some top performers in Israel and India for a fraction, despite being ready to pay the above.
    - bluecheese452 3y ago

allemagne 3y ago

Do companies have a moral obligation to distribute jobs geographically? Assuming that the issue is that these positions weren't remote then if they decided that they're better served by workers that live locally then they're either right and you're asking them to harm their own interests for yours or they're wrong and they're just leaving money on the table for a competitor. If they aren't harmed for giving up a competitive edge then that monopoly power to just ignore the market is the actual problem. Either way, work visas isn't even close to the most salient problem. Restrict them and who's to say how startups will find loopholes to avoid hiring who we want them to hire. Let's just cut out all the messiness and cut them checks directly. Call it reparations for the coasts ignoring the good honest midwest American talent all these years.

alephnerd 3y ago
> Restrict them and who's to say how startups will find loopholes We'll just open offices in Israel, Eastern Europe, and India instead and pay 70% of a US salary. It already started happening in 2019, and avalanched during the pandemic.
- bluecheese452 3y ago
  The obvious response to that is to not allow companies that outsource jobs to sell in the domestic market.
  - alephnerd 3y ago
    And then those companies sell in other countries. When the US banned Israeli companies from selling military IP to China, they began selling to India. Drone tech saw a similar impact, hence why Chinese and Turkish Drone companies are outcompeting American ones in both commercial and defense applications.
    - bluecheese452 3y ago
      Good let them.