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The economy is not a zero sum game. The US created literally all relevant consumer technology in the last 30 or so years and demand for tech talent has explode

The economy is not a zero sum game. The US created literally all relevant consumer technology in the last 30 or so years and demand for tech talent has exploded ever since. Having a competitve sector/ economy which regularly pushes the edge of innovation and hence expands demand (both on sell and supply side) is actually what keeps salaries up. This logic is as deeply flawed as often as it comes up.

bsdpufferfish 3y ago
The myth is that these measures must be taken because of "shortages of workers" when there are plenty of US citizens in STEM who are underemployed. This narrative is purely a lobbying effort.
- manuelabeledo 3y ago
  > ... when there are plenty of US citizens in STEM who are underemployed. Where, exactly? Unemployment rate among STEM graduates is half of that of the general population [0]. Salaries are also substantially higher [1], and keep getting higher [2]. [0] https://ncses.nsf.gov/pubs/nsf23315/report/stem-unemployment#:~:text=Overall%2C%20among%20all%20STEM%20workers,4.9%25 https://ncses.nsf.gov/pubs/nsf23315/report/stem-unemployment...). [1] https://ncses.nsf.gov/pubs/nsf23315/report/stem-median-wage-and-salary-earnings#:~:text=STEM%20workers%20earn%20more%20than,(figure%204%2D1) https://ncses.nsf.gov/pubs/nsf23315/report/stem-median-wage-.... [2] https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg25433814-000-most-stem-salaries-are-on-the-rise-but-inequalities-are-worsening/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg25433814-000-most-ste...
  - bsdpufferfish 3y ago
    Unemployment != underemployment. So the unemployment rate in your first article is not relevant, missing labor participation rates etc. The second article is about median wages of people who are already in jobs categorized as stem. Same with the third, which is also only about the derivative. > Where, exactly? The most prominent segment can be found by dropping the engineering and tech. Biology, math, physics, chemistry, etc. However even in engineering we find that the top grads move into software or finance.
    - manuelabeledo 3y ago
      It seems that data is not relevant, then? I would appreciate it if you were to provide some hard numbers to back your conjecture that immigration is the reason for these cases of "underemployment", like you call it. > However even in engineering we find that the top grads move into software or finance. Software engineering is notorious for being one of the markets with the most H-1B visa holders, yet you are saying that most "top grads" move into it for better wages?
      - bsdpufferfish 3y ago
        I didn’t make up the word underemployment, economists did. Here is some data that tries to at least look at this question: https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2021/06/does-majoring-in-stem-lead-to-stem-job-after-graduation.html https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2021/06/does-majoring... The gross number is only 1/3 of stem degree lead to stem jobs. But that includes quite a bit of soft degree's, still in the ballpark of half of all graduates not working in their field. > software jobs Yes there is higher demand for software which is met with higher wages and drawing underemployed people with other degrees as well as immigration. The immigration restriction argument is that increasing that part of the equation will lower wages and increase corporate control of their workforce. So an alternative way to meet that demand is to hire us citizens who have those qualifications or a related degree that could be trained.
  - tcmart14 3y ago
    I'm not seeing it either. The only engineers I met who are 'under employed' either left the field intentionally, decided to go backpack Europe for 3 years after they graduated (some fields it definitely seems like if your not in the field for awhile the value of your degree vanishes), or they graduated and moved to a place where I live with a ChemE degree looking for ChemE jobs when we have maybe 2 companies in town that hire a small number of ChemEs. It is a highly desired location, so why pay an inexperience ungrad when you can score a ChemE moving into the area with a decades experience at a good price. Another good one. We hired a person with a MechE degree with experience working at JPL into our customer support because they are so in love with the area because of easy access to winter activities (snow shoing, skiing, etc).
  - bluecheese452 3y ago
    Try telling that to all the laid off tech workers or the new grads failing to find jobs.
- thenaturalist 3y ago
  I sincerely urge you to check out macro-economic books and lectures. Imo your narrative amounts is simply not grounded in reality.
edgyquant 3y ago
Yes it is. Every foreign employee getting that tech job is a US citizen from the Midwest not getting it. Fuck this dishonest talking point, I know people coding since high school working at Toyota plants while people from overseas with entry level skill sets have employers move them to the west coast and land jobs (for whatever reason.) It’s favoritism, it’s cronyism, it’s a nation putting its own struggling people last and it most certainly is zero sum.
- alephnerd 3y ago
  > a US citizen from the Midwest not getting it No offense, but maybe your resume didn't reflect that you had the skills required. The companies I worked at and now portfolio companies of mine pay Bay Area market rate to both citizens and non-citizens. We hire noncitizens because we didn't find the right talent we need.
  - blasphemers 3y ago
    So basically you only have open engineering positions in the same few markets that every other tech company does and then you complain when you can't find enough engineers. Engineering talent doesn't only exist on the coasts, despite startup tech culture pretending it does.
    - alephnerd 3y ago
      We listed all these jobs remotely. There just aren't that many engineers who know OS Internals, eBPF, or XDP in Indiana compared to Tel Aviv or Bangalore.
      - remarkEon 3y ago
        That is a policy problem. Opening up more immigration makes that problem worse, not better. It should be a question that everyone asks: why do US Universities not create an adequate supply of workers to meet the demand of the market? No one seems to care and the solution is always “just do more immigration”. Makes no sense.
bluecheese452 3y ago
I don’t know man. I passed 2 FAANG interviews last year and then failed to team match because they froze hiring. I have the skills but no room for me, there are already 10s to hundreds of thousands of foreign workers thank you very much. Seems pretty zero sum to me.

bsdpufferfish 3y ago

The myth is that these measures must be taken because of "shortages of workers" when there are plenty of US citizens in STEM who are underemployed. This narrative is purely a lobbying effort.

manuelabeledo 3y ago
> ... when there are plenty of US citizens in STEM who are underemployed. Where, exactly? Unemployment rate among STEM graduates is half of that of the general population [0]. Salaries are also substantially higher [1], and keep getting higher [2]. [0] https://ncses.nsf.gov/pubs/nsf23315/report/stem-unemployment#:~:text=Overall%2C%20among%20all%20STEM%20workers,4.9%25 https://ncses.nsf.gov/pubs/nsf23315/report/stem-unemployment...). [1] https://ncses.nsf.gov/pubs/nsf23315/report/stem-median-wage-and-salary-earnings#:~:text=STEM%20workers%20earn%20more%20than,(figure%204%2D1) https://ncses.nsf.gov/pubs/nsf23315/report/stem-median-wage-.... [2] https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg25433814-000-most-stem-salaries-are-on-the-rise-but-inequalities-are-worsening/ https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg25433814-000-most-ste...
- bsdpufferfish 3y ago
  Unemployment != underemployment. So the unemployment rate in your first article is not relevant, missing labor participation rates etc. The second article is about median wages of people who are already in jobs categorized as stem. Same with the third, which is also only about the derivative. > Where, exactly? The most prominent segment can be found by dropping the engineering and tech. Biology, math, physics, chemistry, etc. However even in engineering we find that the top grads move into software or finance.
  - manuelabeledo 3y ago
    It seems that data is not relevant, then? I would appreciate it if you were to provide some hard numbers to back your conjecture that immigration is the reason for these cases of "underemployment", like you call it. > However even in engineering we find that the top grads move into software or finance. Software engineering is notorious for being one of the markets with the most H-1B visa holders, yet you are saying that most "top grads" move into it for better wages?
    - bsdpufferfish 3y ago
      I didn’t make up the word underemployment, economists did. Here is some data that tries to at least look at this question: https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2021/06/does-majoring-in-stem-lead-to-stem-job-after-graduation.html https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2021/06/does-majoring... The gross number is only 1/3 of stem degree lead to stem jobs. But that includes quite a bit of soft degree's, still in the ballpark of half of all graduates not working in their field. > software jobs Yes there is higher demand for software which is met with higher wages and drawing underemployed people with other degrees as well as immigration. The immigration restriction argument is that increasing that part of the equation will lower wages and increase corporate control of their workforce. So an alternative way to meet that demand is to hire us citizens who have those qualifications or a related degree that could be trained.
- tcmart14 3y ago
  I'm not seeing it either. The only engineers I met who are 'under employed' either left the field intentionally, decided to go backpack Europe for 3 years after they graduated (some fields it definitely seems like if your not in the field for awhile the value of your degree vanishes), or they graduated and moved to a place where I live with a ChemE degree looking for ChemE jobs when we have maybe 2 companies in town that hire a small number of ChemEs. It is a highly desired location, so why pay an inexperience ungrad when you can score a ChemE moving into the area with a decades experience at a good price. Another good one. We hired a person with a MechE degree with experience working at JPL into our customer support because they are so in love with the area because of easy access to winter activities (snow shoing, skiing, etc).
- bluecheese452 3y ago
  Try telling that to all the laid off tech workers or the new grads failing to find jobs.
thenaturalist 3y ago
I sincerely urge you to check out macro-economic books and lectures. Imo your narrative amounts is simply not grounded in reality.

edgyquant 3y ago

Yes it is. Every foreign employee getting that tech job is a US citizen from the Midwest not getting it. Fuck this dishonest talking point, I know people coding since high school working at Toyota plants while people from overseas with entry level skill sets have employers move them to the west coast and land jobs (for whatever reason.) It’s favoritism, it’s cronyism, it’s a nation putting its own struggling people last and it most certainly is zero sum.

alephnerd 3y ago
> a US citizen from the Midwest not getting it No offense, but maybe your resume didn't reflect that you had the skills required. The companies I worked at and now portfolio companies of mine pay Bay Area market rate to both citizens and non-citizens. We hire noncitizens because we didn't find the right talent we need.
- blasphemers 3y ago
  So basically you only have open engineering positions in the same few markets that every other tech company does and then you complain when you can't find enough engineers. Engineering talent doesn't only exist on the coasts, despite startup tech culture pretending it does.
  - alephnerd 3y ago
    We listed all these jobs remotely. There just aren't that many engineers who know OS Internals, eBPF, or XDP in Indiana compared to Tel Aviv or Bangalore.
    - remarkEon 3y ago
      That is a policy problem. Opening up more immigration makes that problem worse, not better. It should be a question that everyone asks: why do US Universities not create an adequate supply of workers to meet the demand of the market? No one seems to care and the solution is always “just do more immigration”. Makes no sense.

bluecheese452 3y ago

I don’t know man. I passed 2 FAANG interviews last year and then failed to team match because they froze hiring. I have the skills but no room for me, there are already 10s to hundreds of thousands of foreign workers thank you very much. Seems pretty zero sum to me.