4 ms·

I have a side. The truth. The most links in this rabbit hole point to the operations of the USA agencies as a whole. Russia has crumbled in the 90s and now is

by nbzso 3y ago

I have a side. The truth. The most links in this rabbit hole point to the operations of the USA agencies as a whole. Russia has crumbled in the 90s and now is just starting to wake up. If I have to measure threat and I am an American, I would ask: How on earth China has developed this enormous economical advantage over all of the world? Who financed this growth? Who benefited the most? And why, after living through the Cold War, we are heading in a similar direction?

shzhdbi09gv8ioi 3y ago
The russian troll factories are pretty well documented by now [2,3,4,5,6]. You seem to deliberately downplay this. Their boss even famously got killed this year [1]. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Research_Agency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Research_Agency 2: https://edition.cnn.com/2023/02/14/europe/russia-yevgeny-prigozhin-internet-research-agency-intl/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2023/02/14/europe/russia-yevgeny-pri... 3: https://www.severreal.org/a/priznannyy-smi-inoagentom-zhurnalist-bi-bi-si-andrey-zaharov-uehal-iz-rossii/31627984.html https://www.severreal.org/a/priznannyy-smi-inoagentom-zhurna... 4: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/02/putin-kremlin-inside-russian-troll-house https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/02/putin-kremlin-... 5: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/18/world/europe/russia-troll-factory.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/18/world/europe/russia-troll... 6: https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2018/03/15/594062887/some-russians-see-u-s-investigation-into-russian-election-meddling-as-a-soap-ope https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2018/03/15/594062887/...
- nbzso 3y ago
  These are your sources? And please, the leader in information technology and psychology warfare is known to the whole world. Practically all the listed sources are part of the complex of disinformation. On the grand scale of things, the troll farms of Russians are a joke. USA has more than 900 official military bases outside the territory of the country. Can you imagine the logistics? The agents? The infrastructure supporting this global operation? The budgets?
  - shzhdbi09gv8ioi 3y ago
    > These are your sources? Indeed. > And please, the leader in information technology and psychology warfare is known to the whole world. I am not arguing against USA doing psyops. I am simply stating that Russia is, too. You keep downplaying it. > On the grand scale of things, the troll farms of Russians are a joke. I disagree. See the linked sources as to why. > Can you imagine the logistics? How is that relevant here?
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
- Amezarak 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - shzhdbi09gv8ioi 3y ago
    > Of course, much of the widely shared "Russian troll agency" and other bot-related research was later shown to be total bunk. Source: a link you posted to HN in 2020 (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22223177 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22223177) > Of course the IRA exists, but its influence is totally irrelevant Source: you > Moreover, the whole "foreign disinformation" narrative is simply being used to lay the groundwork for the idea that people cannot self-govern. Source: you
    - Amezarak 3y ago
      > source: a link you posted to HN in 2020 Is it surprising that someone interested enough to post in this thread would have had a past interest in the subject as well? It's hard for me to understand how this is a good-faith, thoughtful response. There have been many other takedowns and a lot of other reporting as well, but the link provides some decent insight with a level of detail that an HN reader would appreciate. The tl;dr: most of the "Russian bots" research was, as I summarized, bunk, and pushed by people such as Bill Kristol and other establishment people behind prior false propaganda. I am not sure what "look, you posted this before" is supposed to mean. > Source: you Here is an article published in Nature. Finally, we find no evidence of a meaningful relationship between exposure to the Russian [specifically the IRA] foreign influence campaign and changes in attitudes, polarization, or voting behavior. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-022-35576-9 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-022-35576-9 > Source: you Sure, but you can find op-eds and comments everywhere opining that the "new" nature of disinformation and misinformation on the Internet requires corporate-state collusion to censor and repress, lest those people who are susceptible to these campaigns (never, of course, the experts or the people in government) vote the wrong way. Although I am reluctant to even mention it due to its politicization, the Hunter laptop story is a fine example; claiming the story was Russian disinformation with a total lack of evidence (a claim that persists in some quarters to this day!) damaged the credibility of news institutions and intelligence agencies more than any actual Russian disinformation. The fact the actual story was largely a nothingburger makes it even worse. It gives the appearance that people in positions of influence and power attempted to repress a story that did nothing more than paint someone related to the President in a bad light. Indeed, it's incredible and shameful that the NYT took years to print stories like this [1] which could have been used to refute people quoting the "don’t worry unlike Pop I won’t make you give me half your salary" text because they preferred to leave responsible people with the impression that it was all total fiction and Russian disinformation. Rather than trusting the electorate, the NYT, Twitter, and government intelligence agencies believed it was better to mislead them rather than risk them voting incorrectly. In other words, people are not capable of self-government. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/22/us/politics/hunter-biden-texts-impeachment-republicans.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/22/us/politics/hunter-biden-...
astrange 3y ago
> How on earth China has developed this enormous economical advantage over all of the world? It hasn't. > Who financed this growth? 900 million Chinese people and Deng Xiaoping. > Who benefited the most? More or less everyone. But not anymore.

by nbzso 3y ago

shzhdbi09gv8ioi 3y ago

The russian troll factories are pretty well documented by now [2,3,4,5,6]. You seem to deliberately downplay this. Their boss even famously got killed this year [1]. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Research_Agency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Research_Agency 2: https://edition.cnn.com/2023/02/14/europe/russia-yevgeny-prigozhin-internet-research-agency-intl/index.html https://edition.cnn.com/2023/02/14/europe/russia-yevgeny-pri... 3: https://www.severreal.org/a/priznannyy-smi-inoagentom-zhurnalist-bi-bi-si-andrey-zaharov-uehal-iz-rossii/31627984.html https://www.severreal.org/a/priznannyy-smi-inoagentom-zhurna... 4: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/02/putin-kremlin-inside-russian-troll-house https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/02/putin-kremlin-... 5: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/18/world/europe/russia-troll-factory.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/18/world/europe/russia-troll... 6: https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2018/03/15/594062887/some-russians-see-u-s-investigation-into-russian-election-meddling-as-a-soap-ope https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2018/03/15/594062887/...

nbzso 3y ago
These are your sources? And please, the leader in information technology and psychology warfare is known to the whole world. Practically all the listed sources are part of the complex of disinformation. On the grand scale of things, the troll farms of Russians are a joke. USA has more than 900 official military bases outside the territory of the country. Can you imagine the logistics? The agents? The infrastructure supporting this global operation? The budgets?
- shzhdbi09gv8ioi 3y ago
  > These are your sources? Indeed. > And please, the leader in information technology and psychology warfare is known to the whole world. I am not arguing against USA doing psyops. I am simply stating that Russia is, too. You keep downplaying it. > On the grand scale of things, the troll farms of Russians are a joke. I disagree. See the linked sources as to why. > Can you imagine the logistics? How is that relevant here?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
Amezarak 3y ago
[flagged]
- shzhdbi09gv8ioi 3y ago
  > Of course, much of the widely shared "Russian troll agency" and other bot-related research was later shown to be total bunk. Source: a link you posted to HN in 2020 (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22223177 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22223177) > Of course the IRA exists, but its influence is totally irrelevant Source: you > Moreover, the whole "foreign disinformation" narrative is simply being used to lay the groundwork for the idea that people cannot self-govern. Source: you
  - Amezarak 3y ago
    > source: a link you posted to HN in 2020 Is it surprising that someone interested enough to post in this thread would have had a past interest in the subject as well? It's hard for me to understand how this is a good-faith, thoughtful response. There have been many other takedowns and a lot of other reporting as well, but the link provides some decent insight with a level of detail that an HN reader would appreciate. The tl;dr: most of the "Russian bots" research was, as I summarized, bunk, and pushed by people such as Bill Kristol and other establishment people behind prior false propaganda. I am not sure what "look, you posted this before" is supposed to mean. > Source: you Here is an article published in Nature. Finally, we find no evidence of a meaningful relationship between exposure to the Russian [specifically the IRA] foreign influence campaign and changes in attitudes, polarization, or voting behavior. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-022-35576-9 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-022-35576-9 > Source: you Sure, but you can find op-eds and comments everywhere opining that the "new" nature of disinformation and misinformation on the Internet requires corporate-state collusion to censor and repress, lest those people who are susceptible to these campaigns (never, of course, the experts or the people in government) vote the wrong way. Although I am reluctant to even mention it due to its politicization, the Hunter laptop story is a fine example; claiming the story was Russian disinformation with a total lack of evidence (a claim that persists in some quarters to this day!) damaged the credibility of news institutions and intelligence agencies more than any actual Russian disinformation. The fact the actual story was largely a nothingburger makes it even worse. It gives the appearance that people in positions of influence and power attempted to repress a story that did nothing more than paint someone related to the President in a bad light. Indeed, it's incredible and shameful that the NYT took years to print stories like this [1] which could have been used to refute people quoting the "don’t worry unlike Pop I won’t make you give me half your salary" text because they preferred to leave responsible people with the impression that it was all total fiction and Russian disinformation. Rather than trusting the electorate, the NYT, Twitter, and government intelligence agencies believed it was better to mislead them rather than risk them voting incorrectly. In other words, people are not capable of self-government. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/22/us/politics/hunter-biden-texts-impeachment-republicans.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/22/us/politics/hunter-biden-...

astrange 3y ago

> How on earth China has developed this enormous economical advantage over all of the world? It hasn't. > Who financed this growth? 900 million Chinese people and Deng Xiaoping. > Who benefited the most? More or less everyone. But not anymore.