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The flip to "Russia == Evil" when they invaded Ukraine (the most recent time) was impressive. I'm not an apologist, I think Russia is currently [insert long li

by flir 3y ago

The flip to "Russia == Evil" when they invaded Ukraine (the most recent time) was impressive. I'm not an apologist, I think Russia is currently [insert long list of bad things here], I'm just impressed at the speed we went from indifference towards Russians, or tacit approval (oligarchs in London), to sanctioned hatred.

the-dude 3y ago
Similar flip with China. I do read user comments on our Dutch news-sites, just to keep an eye on 'average Joe'. I am amazed by the hatred towards China.
ekianjo 3y ago
[flagged]
- flir 3y ago
  Heh. No, you're the bot! It's difficult, isn't it. You can't even discuss the phenomenon without looking sus. Talk about a poisoned well.
raverbashing 3y ago
I think you're missing a big part of XX century history on the factors that lead to that
- flir 3y ago
  Maybe, but I don't think so. The 2014 invasion was met with a resounding "meh" in the west. So what 20th century factors caused us to go "meh" in 2014 and "orcs! orcs!" in 2022?
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    MH17, and the lack of plausible deniability. The 2014 invasion was just that, but was dressed up as something else and didn't include massive Russian army deployments in the build-up. It also didn't look like something that could happen to Romania, Poland, the Baltics or Finland. All of which have more in common with Ukraine than they do with say Afghanistan. So 2014 wasn't 'meh' for those that are more politically informed but it wasn't something that registered as a threat to the bulk of the EU and didn't include actual threats not to get involved on punishment of nuclear bombardment by the belligerent. But even today there are a lot of idiots here who are still in 'meh' mode and who couldn't care less about what happens to Ukraine and who would rather think about this in financial terms than in loss of life or what it means for the future.
ricardobeat 3y ago
Starting a war can do that to a country.
- sneak 3y ago
  Americans didn’t seem to care when Russia invaded Georgia (or Chechnya). It’s only when Russia started protecting its GDP by eliminating its only meaningful competition for selling shale gas to the west did it become geopolitically critical to turn public opinion against it. Russia’s GDP eventually collapses if Ukraine remains intact, as the west will buy gas from them instead. There are no meaningful quantities of petrochemicals in Georgia.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
JW_00000 3y ago
Inside that quite rational in a way? When Putin hadn't launched a full-scale invasion of a country, I considered him a bit evil; after he invaded a country, I consider him truly evil. Am I making this decision based on my state's media and propaganda, or on his actions?
- t-3 3y ago
  Well, have you considered US presidents evil for their invasions, occupations, and wars, or do you consider the people they invaded to be evil? When whole countries are being starved and routinely bombed, is that what they deserve for not being correctly enlightened and choosing the wrong leaders, or is it the fault of bombers and blockaders? Are some brutal dictators not so bad because they're on "your side"? Are accusations of genocide against enemies believed even without solid evidence while accusations against allies are misinformation?
  - nverno 3y ago
    Apples and oranges. The US had done plenty of atrocities since the CIA branched off after WW2, sabotaging foreign governments, temporary invasions, etc. But, if the US was Russia, all the Americas would be Russia by now.
dale_glass 3y ago
Why? It's perfectly normal human behavior. You don't care very much for most people by default. Even if you think they're not very good people, because caring takes effort. But once they punch you or a friend in the face? now you have a reason to care. Everyone just thought that Russia was sabre rattling and that they weren't actually going to do it. Once they did it, that caused a lot of people to re-assess their views.
- flir 3y ago
  Then why not 2014? Why don't a dozen other wars around the world get the same reaction? Why not the Uyghur genocide? Why this one? Yes, it's normal human behaviour, but it's normal human behaviour with a propaganda pump behind it (IMO). Of course, I can't prove this. Maybe it was all just completely organic and I've just watched one too many Adam Curtis documentaries.
  - astrange 3y ago
    I don't think we need to put the Uyghur genocide on Russia. Syria sure.
  - dale_glass 3y ago
    > Then why not 2014? Because Crimea is in a weird political situation where it sorta arguably belonged to Russia before Khruschev did a bizarre stunt with reassigning it to Ukraine, in a time when that didn't matter, which suddenly started to matter post USSR. That plus it having a huge Russian population. All of that muddled the waters enough to make it very unclear who was in the right there, and that leaves the easy default of not caring. Meanwhile, the current war was extremely unambiguous. > Why don't a dozen other wars around the world get the same reaction? Why not the Uyghur genocide? Why this one? Because it's physically closer, and because Ukraine is a lot more culturally closer to us. Uyghurs are Muslim, while Ukraininans are Christians and generally a decent cultural fit with the west. And because Ukraine had been moving towards a more democratic government. And I think Zelensky can take a lot of credit for being a great communicator at exactly the right time.
    - 3y ago
Bluescreenbuddy 3y ago
Flip? We already knew he was evil. Then the invasion happened and the war crimes came. But yes do go on about how we all got brain washed. Good grief. Stop commenting.

by flir 3y ago

the-dude 3y ago

Similar flip with China. I do read user comments on our Dutch news-sites, just to keep an eye on 'average Joe'. I am amazed by the hatred towards China.

ekianjo 3y ago

[flagged]

flir 3y ago
Heh. No, you're the bot! It's difficult, isn't it. You can't even discuss the phenomenon without looking sus. Talk about a poisoned well.

raverbashing 3y ago

I think you're missing a big part of XX century history on the factors that lead to that

flir 3y ago
Maybe, but I don't think so. The 2014 invasion was met with a resounding "meh" in the west. So what 20th century factors caused us to go "meh" in 2014 and "orcs! orcs!" in 2022?
- jacquesm 3y ago
  MH17, and the lack of plausible deniability. The 2014 invasion was just that, but was dressed up as something else and didn't include massive Russian army deployments in the build-up. It also didn't look like something that could happen to Romania, Poland, the Baltics or Finland. All of which have more in common with Ukraine than they do with say Afghanistan. So 2014 wasn't 'meh' for those that are more politically informed but it wasn't something that registered as a threat to the bulk of the EU and didn't include actual threats not to get involved on punishment of nuclear bombardment by the belligerent. But even today there are a lot of idiots here who are still in 'meh' mode and who couldn't care less about what happens to Ukraine and who would rather think about this in financial terms than in loss of life or what it means for the future.

ricardobeat 3y ago

Starting a war can do that to a country.

sneak 3y ago
Americans didn’t seem to care when Russia invaded Georgia (or Chechnya). It’s only when Russia started protecting its GDP by eliminating its only meaningful competition for selling shale gas to the west did it become geopolitically critical to turn public opinion against it. Russia’s GDP eventually collapses if Ukraine remains intact, as the west will buy gas from them instead. There are no meaningful quantities of petrochemicals in Georgia.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

JW_00000 3y ago

Inside that quite rational in a way? When Putin hadn't launched a full-scale invasion of a country, I considered him a bit evil; after he invaded a country, I consider him truly evil. Am I making this decision based on my state's media and propaganda, or on his actions?

t-3 3y ago
Well, have you considered US presidents evil for their invasions, occupations, and wars, or do you consider the people they invaded to be evil? When whole countries are being starved and routinely bombed, is that what they deserve for not being correctly enlightened and choosing the wrong leaders, or is it the fault of bombers and blockaders? Are some brutal dictators not so bad because they're on "your side"? Are accusations of genocide against enemies believed even without solid evidence while accusations against allies are misinformation?
- nverno 3y ago
  Apples and oranges. The US had done plenty of atrocities since the CIA branched off after WW2, sabotaging foreign governments, temporary invasions, etc. But, if the US was Russia, all the Americas would be Russia by now.

dale_glass 3y ago

Why? It's perfectly normal human behavior. You don't care very much for most people by default. Even if you think they're not very good people, because caring takes effort. But once they punch you or a friend in the face? now you have a reason to care. Everyone just thought that Russia was sabre rattling and that they weren't actually going to do it. Once they did it, that caused a lot of people to re-assess their views.

flir 3y ago
Then why not 2014? Why don't a dozen other wars around the world get the same reaction? Why not the Uyghur genocide? Why this one? Yes, it's normal human behaviour, but it's normal human behaviour with a propaganda pump behind it (IMO). Of course, I can't prove this. Maybe it was all just completely organic and I've just watched one too many Adam Curtis documentaries.
- astrange 3y ago
  I don't think we need to put the Uyghur genocide on Russia. Syria sure.
- dale_glass 3y ago
  > Then why not 2014? Because Crimea is in a weird political situation where it sorta arguably belonged to Russia before Khruschev did a bizarre stunt with reassigning it to Ukraine, in a time when that didn't matter, which suddenly started to matter post USSR. That plus it having a huge Russian population. All of that muddled the waters enough to make it very unclear who was in the right there, and that leaves the easy default of not caring. Meanwhile, the current war was extremely unambiguous. > Why don't a dozen other wars around the world get the same reaction? Why not the Uyghur genocide? Why this one? Because it's physically closer, and because Ukraine is a lot more culturally closer to us. Uyghurs are Muslim, while Ukraininans are Christians and generally a decent cultural fit with the west. And because Ukraine had been moving towards a more democratic government. And I think Zelensky can take a lot of credit for being a great communicator at exactly the right time.
  - 3y ago

Bluescreenbuddy 3y ago

Flip? We already knew he was evil. Then the invasion happened and the war crimes came. But yes do go on about how we all got brain washed. Good grief. Stop commenting.