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There is a perfect level of cynicism here. The people want a simple model of reality. It shows up immediately at all levels of society. Simple messages work in

by roenxi 3y ago

There is a perfect level of cynicism here. The people want a simple model of reality. It shows up immediately at all levels of society. Simple messages work in the family, win elections, and persist for centuries whether they work or not when implemented. The tech industry is interesting as an example closer to HN for how management regularly assumes situations are simple despite endless counterexamples. There are threads in the media that are probably government sponsored (topically, John Brennan going CIA->MSNBC or the Twitter files). The oversimplification is likely because people don't engage with complexity without shutting down. The refusal of the corporate media to learn that War is Bad is probably government sponsored. Even then, the military industrial complex and regulatory capture muddies the water somewhat about who is motivating the madness.

ethanbond 3y ago
> people want a simple model of reality > War is Bad. Come on!
- roenxi 3y ago
  I dunno. I'm arguing that the media is only going to settle on a simple model of reality and I'm proposing the closest-to-reality model as the one that they'd settle on if not for financially/politically motivated reasoning. The US has pretty much bankrupted itself and achieved not much useful for themselves with their global military expeditions. I think almost everything they've done in the last 50 years has been an embarrassment for them. I dunno, any successes? The worm is even starting to turn on Ukraine as people note the consequence, expense and general lack of good outcomes as the China-Russia-Iran axis gets welded together. They could have shortened the leash of the coup-organisers back in the early 2010s, left Ukraine as a buffer state and avoided the whole situation with better results for ... maybe literally everyone. I mean, it is starting to look like the 2024 Russia-Ukraine border will be the one that could have been settled on pretty early in the conflict with a bit of diplomacy; then everyone digs in and settles for the long stalemate. It beggars belief that a neutrally motivated reporter would still be gung-ho about sending in the troops before thinking. I suppose reporters are a bit slow, but the track record is appalling and the alternatives - some more cooperative diplomacy - so obvious even Trump was talking about it. It was a mistake to demonise that part of his platform. Unless the goal was more war, in which case well done another mission accomplished.
  - astrange 3y ago
    The US is very much not bankrupted. I'll forgive conspiratorial thinking but don't be bad at economics too!
    - roenxi 3y ago
      They're at debt levels consistent with fighting in WWII [0]. And interest payments on the debt have overtaken military spending. It is going to get paid back banana-republic style. You can quibble the word choice if you like, but the military policy was a big contributing factor to this outcome. Assuming that the Russia-Ukraine conflict settles down, Iran doesn't act up and the South China Sea stays peaceful. Fingers crossed the US is about to enter a period of peace-by-lacking-affluence rather than something ugly happening. Bonus graph: You can see China unloading their holdings [1] as fast as a trillion dollars can be moved. It makes entertaining viewing. Good luck to Japan who look to be the bag holders on this one. It'll be intriguing to find out who is on the other side of the tax havens too. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_debt_of_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_debt_of_the_United_St... [1] https://ticdata.treasury.gov/resource-center/data-chart-center/tic/Documents/slt_table5.html https://ticdata.treasury.gov/resource-center/data-chart-cent... EDIT Occasionally people bring up Japanese debt at this point in the conversation. For reference on that topic, note that on balance they are net creditors: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_international_investment_position https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_international_investment_p...
      - wewxjfq 3y ago
        It's funny that in a thread with so many unhinged comments (psyop or psychosis), someone notices that China is the lone country dumping its dollars and comes to the tamest, most naive conclusion, that they employ better economists than the rest of the world.
        roenxi 3y ago
        That wasn't my conclusion. Although I would respect someone arguing that Li Keqiang (RIP) was a great economist.
- darkclouds 3y ago
  [dead]
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
peteradio 3y ago
> War is Bad Compared to what?
- postsantum 3y ago
  Our noble war is good compared to their barbaric war. Simple as
  - rzzzt 3y ago
    War! What is it good for?
    - seanhunter 3y ago
      Good god y’all! Absolutely nutthin. Say it again!
      - aatd86 3y ago
        They didn't get you, given the downvotes. Could at least have watched rush hour or something if they don't listen to music :-D
    - hutzlibu 3y ago
      For the winners? Traditionally: slaves and loot. Or new land to settle. Today it is somewhat more complicated, but there are still winners in war. It usually just ain't those, who are fighting in it. And obviously not those, who just get bombed to death.
- mrangle 3y ago
  It's perfectly valid to make that statement without a requirement for relativism. War is bad, absolutely. Our enemies may be worse than war, but that doesn't change the fact.
  - peteradio 3y ago
    You can make that statement but all decision making is relative.
rdtsc 3y ago
Multiple actors likely co-operate and help each other without explicit communication. (Is that still conspiracy?) The corporations wouldn’t want a government created issue, like war, go to waste, and will play along to make some profit. The media will self-censor to avoid losing advertising customers. As far as they are concerned war is bad sometimes, depending if doesn’t or does further their interests. I remember people watching the US invasion of Iraq invasion on CNN. CNN didn’t start it but it a great boost of views from it.

by roenxi 3y ago

ethanbond 3y ago

> people want a simple model of reality > War is Bad. Come on!

roenxi 3y ago
I dunno. I'm arguing that the media is only going to settle on a simple model of reality and I'm proposing the closest-to-reality model as the one that they'd settle on if not for financially/politically motivated reasoning. The US has pretty much bankrupted itself and achieved not much useful for themselves with their global military expeditions. I think almost everything they've done in the last 50 years has been an embarrassment for them. I dunno, any successes? The worm is even starting to turn on Ukraine as people note the consequence, expense and general lack of good outcomes as the China-Russia-Iran axis gets welded together. They could have shortened the leash of the coup-organisers back in the early 2010s, left Ukraine as a buffer state and avoided the whole situation with better results for ... maybe literally everyone. I mean, it is starting to look like the 2024 Russia-Ukraine border will be the one that could have been settled on pretty early in the conflict with a bit of diplomacy; then everyone digs in and settles for the long stalemate. It beggars belief that a neutrally motivated reporter would still be gung-ho about sending in the troops before thinking. I suppose reporters are a bit slow, but the track record is appalling and the alternatives - some more cooperative diplomacy - so obvious even Trump was talking about it. It was a mistake to demonise that part of his platform. Unless the goal was more war, in which case well done another mission accomplished.
- astrange 3y ago
  The US is very much not bankrupted. I'll forgive conspiratorial thinking but don't be bad at economics too!
  - roenxi 3y ago
    They're at debt levels consistent with fighting in WWII [0]. And interest payments on the debt have overtaken military spending. It is going to get paid back banana-republic style. You can quibble the word choice if you like, but the military policy was a big contributing factor to this outcome. Assuming that the Russia-Ukraine conflict settles down, Iran doesn't act up and the South China Sea stays peaceful. Fingers crossed the US is about to enter a period of peace-by-lacking-affluence rather than something ugly happening. Bonus graph: You can see China unloading their holdings [1] as fast as a trillion dollars can be moved. It makes entertaining viewing. Good luck to Japan who look to be the bag holders on this one. It'll be intriguing to find out who is on the other side of the tax havens too. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_debt_of_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_debt_of_the_United_St... [1] https://ticdata.treasury.gov/resource-center/data-chart-center/tic/Documents/slt_table5.html https://ticdata.treasury.gov/resource-center/data-chart-cent... EDIT Occasionally people bring up Japanese debt at this point in the conversation. For reference on that topic, note that on balance they are net creditors: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_international_investment_position https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_international_investment_p...
    - wewxjfq 3y ago
      It's funny that in a thread with so many unhinged comments (psyop or psychosis), someone notices that China is the lone country dumping its dollars and comes to the tamest, most naive conclusion, that they employ better economists than the rest of the world.
      - roenxi 3y ago
        That wasn't my conclusion. Although I would respect someone arguing that Li Keqiang (RIP) was a great economist.
darkclouds 3y ago
[dead]

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

peteradio 3y ago

> War is Bad Compared to what?

postsantum 3y ago
Our noble war is good compared to their barbaric war. Simple as
- rzzzt 3y ago
  War! What is it good for?
  - seanhunter 3y ago
    Good god y’all! Absolutely nutthin. Say it again!
    - aatd86 3y ago
      They didn't get you, given the downvotes. Could at least have watched rush hour or something if they don't listen to music :-D
  - hutzlibu 3y ago
    For the winners? Traditionally: slaves and loot. Or new land to settle. Today it is somewhat more complicated, but there are still winners in war. It usually just ain't those, who are fighting in it. And obviously not those, who just get bombed to death.
mrangle 3y ago
It's perfectly valid to make that statement without a requirement for relativism. War is bad, absolutely. Our enemies may be worse than war, but that doesn't change the fact.
- peteradio 3y ago
  You can make that statement but all decision making is relative.

rdtsc 3y ago

Multiple actors likely co-operate and help each other without explicit communication. (Is that still conspiracy?) The corporations wouldn’t want a government created issue, like war, go to waste, and will play along to make some profit. The media will self-censor to avoid losing advertising customers. As far as they are concerned war is bad sometimes, depending if doesn’t or does further their interests. I remember people watching the US invasion of Iraq invasion on CNN. CNN didn’t start it but it a great boost of views from it.