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Apple, in my opinion, does a very good job of supporting old devices. Buying an iPhone and keeping it for 6 years is a great strategy and when amortising the co

Apple, in my opinion, does a very good job of supporting old devices. Buying an iPhone and keeping it for 6 years is a great strategy and when amortising the cost of the phone over those 6 years, it's price competitive with Android. I do wish legislators forced Apple and Google to give users a path to install an alternative OS on their device. That would enable old iPhones(and Androids) to have their lifetime extended further.

izacus 3y ago
> I do wish legislators forced Apple and Google to give users a path to install an alternative OS on their device. All Google phones allow installation of alternative OSes (and are pretty much the only phones that allow resigning the boot loader so they're still secure - which is why they're chosen by projects like GrapheneOS). Why do you think they need to be forced into anything? You can buy a Pixel right now and run an alternative OS.
- K0nserv 3y ago
  Yeah I know some devices already support this, the point of forcing it via legislation would be for those that don't. I think this is also the answer to "the app store question". It feels unfair to force Apple to change a core value proposition by forcing them to allow side loading, but in the spirit of "It's my device" it should be possible to install an OS that makes a different tradeoff e.g. Android
- zote 3y ago
  I interpret their comment as suggesting that Apple should adopt a similar approach, and that Google, as a platform owner, should mandate this requirement for licensing Android™ (not AOSP) to other OEMs (I've had several phones whose bootloader couldn't be unlocked), and for this to be a practice enshrined by law for any other such companies that could operate in a similar position.
- blacksoil 3y ago
  I think the biggest problem is in the alternative OS. Non-official OSes typically are unstable that I personally find not worth the time given phone is quite important piece of communication. As others have already mentioned, certain lines and brands, such as One Plus, Google Pixels, etc have unlockable bootloader so people are free to install custom OSes.
  - andrepd 3y ago
    I've been installing alternative ROMs on my android phones for almost 15 years. Never did I have any stability issues, on the contrary: the community ROMs often did a much better job than the official ones in terms of battery management, etc.
    - d3w4s9 3y ago
      Not trying to contradict what your say, but my experience from a few years ago was: * If you don't use a super popular model, you would have very few choices for custom ROMs * Often custom ROMs are still at the mercy of original manufacturer for certain hardware support -- e.g. they need to release "base AOSP image" or something like that * Custom ROMs often had random things not working, e.g. NFC not functional or cell/WiFi signal weaker than stock ROM * Some come with certain crappy preinstalled apps. Sure you can remove them, but still annoying * Battling SafetyNet was a cat-and-mouse game which I gave up * Browsing xda-developers forum and following the latest reply of a 10-page, 200-post thread like back in the early 2000s was the only way to get updates of a certain ROM. OTA updates were mostly out of the question * ... and many more added to this I don't know how much has changed, hopefully a lot. I don't doubt if you have a phone of a popular model, you can find a custom ROM that does not make compromises and is much cleaner and better than the stock ROM. But these days I simply don't have any time for tasking the risk and messing with these things and worry WiFi might not work in some cases.
FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>Buying an iPhone and keeping it for 6 years is a great strategy and when amortising the cost of the phone over those 6 years, it's price competitive with Android. What's stopping you from keeping your Android 6 years making it an event better value? Most people I know don't throw away their Androids after 3 years but keep them as long as iPhones. Basically until it breaks/dies. So far I don't know anyone who got hacked and suffered damages for using an Android that stopped getting updates.
- K0nserv 3y ago
  Shorter patch cycles - at least historically, I haven't kept pace with the Android ecosystem. That said, with Android you can use a different OS and keep the device secured
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    Sure, but like I said, people don't throw away their phones once they get stop getting SW patches the same way they don't throw away their ancient Macbooks with glowing Apple logos just because Apple stopped pushing OS updates years ago, because most non-HN people have no idea what patches are and they keep their phone and laptop as long as it still works and the battery lasts. Obsession with zero day patches and security hypochondria is mostly a HN/tech-workers thing as if they're under attack by state actors using Pegasus. The average joe doesn't care not is he very likely to be impacted, unless using Android Jellybean or something, since most malware in the wild out to get them is script kiddie level not state-actor level. And anyway, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but from my knowledge and experience with Android security, most Android critical vulns that can impact the day to day security of the Average Joe are covered by updating Google Play services and Chrome or whatever browser you use as those are the main attack surfaces for (non state sponsored) malware based on what people do with their phones, and those services keep getting updates from Google long after the manufacturers stopped pushing OS updates.
- signal11 3y ago
  > So far I don't know anyone who got hacked and suffered damages for using an Android that stopped getting updates. That’s a “hope for the best” approach to security, for me it’d be irresponsible to recommend it to even friends and family. But if you want to do it with knowledge of the potential problems — go for it. It’s your phone and your data.
d3w4s9 3y ago
No real change is going to happen. Out of all the mobile phone users out there, likely no more than 0.1% will ever consider installing alternative OS on their phone, even if allowed by law. Just look at the size of the custom ROM community in Android and real world impact.
artjomb 3y ago
Yes, Apple is supporting older devices, but has made my SE 2020 nearly unusable (slow as hell, horrible UI bugs when typing) after updating to iOS 17. Everything worked perfectly until then. It seems as though Apple wants me to buy a more expensive phone. A friend had the exact same problem and now upgraded to a newer model.

izacus 3y ago

> I do wish legislators forced Apple and Google to give users a path to install an alternative OS on their device. All Google phones allow installation of alternative OSes (and are pretty much the only phones that allow resigning the boot loader so they're still secure - which is why they're chosen by projects like GrapheneOS). Why do you think they need to be forced into anything? You can buy a Pixel right now and run an alternative OS.

K0nserv 3y ago
Yeah I know some devices already support this, the point of forcing it via legislation would be for those that don't. I think this is also the answer to "the app store question". It feels unfair to force Apple to change a core value proposition by forcing them to allow side loading, but in the spirit of "It's my device" it should be possible to install an OS that makes a different tradeoff e.g. Android
zote 3y ago
I interpret their comment as suggesting that Apple should adopt a similar approach, and that Google, as a platform owner, should mandate this requirement for licensing Android™ (not AOSP) to other OEMs (I've had several phones whose bootloader couldn't be unlocked), and for this to be a practice enshrined by law for any other such companies that could operate in a similar position.
blacksoil 3y ago
I think the biggest problem is in the alternative OS. Non-official OSes typically are unstable that I personally find not worth the time given phone is quite important piece of communication. As others have already mentioned, certain lines and brands, such as One Plus, Google Pixels, etc have unlockable bootloader so people are free to install custom OSes.
- andrepd 3y ago
  I've been installing alternative ROMs on my android phones for almost 15 years. Never did I have any stability issues, on the contrary: the community ROMs often did a much better job than the official ones in terms of battery management, etc.
  - d3w4s9 3y ago
    Not trying to contradict what your say, but my experience from a few years ago was: * If you don't use a super popular model, you would have very few choices for custom ROMs * Often custom ROMs are still at the mercy of original manufacturer for certain hardware support -- e.g. they need to release "base AOSP image" or something like that * Custom ROMs often had random things not working, e.g. NFC not functional or cell/WiFi signal weaker than stock ROM * Some come with certain crappy preinstalled apps. Sure you can remove them, but still annoying * Battling SafetyNet was a cat-and-mouse game which I gave up * Browsing xda-developers forum and following the latest reply of a 10-page, 200-post thread like back in the early 2000s was the only way to get updates of a certain ROM. OTA updates were mostly out of the question * ... and many more added to this I don't know how much has changed, hopefully a lot. I don't doubt if you have a phone of a popular model, you can find a custom ROM that does not make compromises and is much cleaner and better than the stock ROM. But these days I simply don't have any time for tasking the risk and messing with these things and worry WiFi might not work in some cases.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago

>Buying an iPhone and keeping it for 6 years is a great strategy and when amortising the cost of the phone over those 6 years, it's price competitive with Android. What's stopping you from keeping your Android 6 years making it an event better value? Most people I know don't throw away their Androids after 3 years but keep them as long as iPhones. Basically until it breaks/dies. So far I don't know anyone who got hacked and suffered damages for using an Android that stopped getting updates.

K0nserv 3y ago
Shorter patch cycles - at least historically, I haven't kept pace with the Android ecosystem. That said, with Android you can use a different OS and keep the device secured
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  Sure, but like I said, people don't throw away their phones once they get stop getting SW patches the same way they don't throw away their ancient Macbooks with glowing Apple logos just because Apple stopped pushing OS updates years ago, because most non-HN people have no idea what patches are and they keep their phone and laptop as long as it still works and the battery lasts. Obsession with zero day patches and security hypochondria is mostly a HN/tech-workers thing as if they're under attack by state actors using Pegasus. The average joe doesn't care not is he very likely to be impacted, unless using Android Jellybean or something, since most malware in the wild out to get them is script kiddie level not state-actor level. And anyway, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but from my knowledge and experience with Android security, most Android critical vulns that can impact the day to day security of the Average Joe are covered by updating Google Play services and Chrome or whatever browser you use as those are the main attack surfaces for (non state sponsored) malware based on what people do with their phones, and those services keep getting updates from Google long after the manufacturers stopped pushing OS updates.
signal11 3y ago
> So far I don't know anyone who got hacked and suffered damages for using an Android that stopped getting updates. That’s a “hope for the best” approach to security, for me it’d be irresponsible to recommend it to even friends and family. But if you want to do it with knowledge of the potential problems — go for it. It’s your phone and your data.

d3w4s9 3y ago

No real change is going to happen. Out of all the mobile phone users out there, likely no more than 0.1% will ever consider installing alternative OS on their phone, even if allowed by law. Just look at the size of the custom ROM community in Android and real world impact.

artjomb 3y ago

Yes, Apple is supporting older devices, but has made my SE 2020 nearly unusable (slow as hell, horrible UI bugs when typing) after updating to iOS 17. Everything worked perfectly until then. It seems as though Apple wants me to buy a more expensive phone. A friend had the exact same problem and now upgraded to a newer model.