9 ms·

Para-infectious brain injury in Covid-19 persists at follow-up

69 points by luu 3y ago

kgc 3y ago
How would a normal person order tests for autoantibodies or persistent viral infection?
- m1sta_ 3y ago
  Via a doctor.
- adhdexperience 3y ago
  There are labs you can just order stuff from. I.e. I gave myself full bloodwork done at Synlab as a present for my 35 birthday, and they had covid antibody-levels test available as well.
  - wolfpack_mick 3y ago
    Did you feel it was money well spent? I'm nearing 40 and I'm wondering wether i should get into the routine of a scan like that every few years..
    - adhdexperience 3y ago
      I was lucky that I could use some corporate benefit for that, but even out of pocket it would be 30-50 Eur? And most things were within baseline, and things that weren't were close enough (I.e. I don't feel like stressing about cholesterol just yet), but I like I have a baseline to refer to.
bell-cot 3y ago
Abstract: > To understand neurological complications of COVID-19 better both acutely and for recovery, we measured markers of brain injury, inflammatory mediators, and autoantibodies in 203 hospitalised participants; 111 with acute sera (1–11 days post-admission) and 92 convalescent sera (56 with COVID-19-associated neurological diagnoses). Here we show that compared to 60 uninfected controls, [...lots of technical stuff here...] Overall, neurological complications of COVID-19 are associated with evidence of neuroglial injury in both acute and late disease and these correlate with dysregulated innate and adaptive immune responses acutely. So - plenty of "maybe have the lab test his levels of V, W, X, Y, and Z" ideas, for a doctor who is trying to figure out whether or not $Patient is suffering from post-COVID brain injuries. But ~zilch in the way of treatments for $Patient's problems.
- im3w1l 3y ago
  Seems like this is research that is laying foundations for further research, rather than research that tries help doctors solve problems on the ground. Nothing wrong with that.
- defrost 3y ago
  > ~zilch in the way of treatments for $Patient's problems. Exactly as you'd reasonably expect at this time given what is being reported here. The only thing that is strongly probable here is the apparent lack of direct COVID effect on the brain (paragraph two of Introduction). This is a paper that follows up on earlier statistical observations that more than an expected number of serious enough to be hospitalised (and a few others) COVID patients have neurological complications. Paper One [1]: "Whatya reckon ablout these numbers?" Paper Two: "Hmm, looks like this might be a thing." as yet, there is no proposed mechanism for COVID indirectly causing neurological complications which obviously limits any treatments for the unknown chain(s) of causation. [1] Neurological and neuropsychiatric complications of COVID-19 in 153 patients: a UK-wide surveillance study (June 25, 2020) https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0366(20)30287-X/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0...
  - ljf 3y ago
    I've not read the paper, so I apologise if this is a totally uneducated guess - but earlier that was a lot of concern about blood clotting <1> and micro clots caused by covid, and also concern about changes to blood vessels <2> <1> https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2023-09-01-blood-clots-during-covid-19-may-be-cause-ongoing-cognitive-problems https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2023-09-01-blood-clots-during-covi... <2> https://www.tum.de/en/news-and-events/all-news/press-releases/details/new-approach-to-testing-for-long-covid https://www.tum.de/en/news-and-events/all-news/press-release...
- bell-cot 3y ago
  Edit: From a "Pure Science" PoV, both the "'...maybe...lab test...' ideas" and the "~zilch in the way of treatments" are reasonable and normal. From a "quickly summarize these results, for actual human beings with actual skin in the this game" PoV, both of those thing are important.
atemerev 3y ago
Long covid has ruined my life and career.
- lend000 3y ago
  Try living like a monk, if you have the privilege. (Seriously). Cut out all sugar, all refined carbs, all stress, and prioritize sleep, meditation, and relaxation (especially before sleep) above all else, and then gradually amp up the low intensity exercise. It really does help. Some of these tips were from someone who cured their M.S. (a very similar disease) and was describing the process on HN. Source: self. I'm not completely cured, but I've made huge strides and I probably could be if I was better about avoiding stressors / my career ambitions.
  - atemerev 3y ago
    I have a family to support, sorry.
    - seper8 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - hiddencost 3y ago
        Pull your head out of your ass.
    - benterix 3y ago
      You can talk to them. Are you a male? Because males live much shorter than women and while some of it is biological, differences between countries show that most of this is social conditioning. Your family will be better off if you can live longer and in better health. Don't make it just your problem that you alone have to solve. Many men before you died because of this,
    - DANmode 3y ago
      I have done this while supporting a family. Saying these are incompatible is a pretty immovable state of mind that will prove harder to fix than COVID.
thenerdhead 3y ago
There isn't much we can do to see if viruses persist in the brain besides an immediate autopsy(which has its flaws). One promising thing I've seen is scanning someone's brain to see brain cell amyloid plaque formations which may indicate an immune response / protection from these viruses. This also could be a means to better understand other diseases like Alzheimer's. But for other brain researchers with regards to covid/long covid, there isn't strong evidence yet to suggest it can reach the brain outside of the current autopsy studies: https://www.neurology.org/doi/10.1212/nxi.0000000000200097 https://www.neurology.org/doi/10.1212/nxi.0000000000200097

69 points by luu 3y ago

kgc 3y ago

How would a normal person order tests for autoantibodies or persistent viral infection?

m1sta_ 3y ago
Via a doctor.
adhdexperience 3y ago
There are labs you can just order stuff from. I.e. I gave myself full bloodwork done at Synlab as a present for my 35 birthday, and they had covid antibody-levels test available as well.
- wolfpack_mick 3y ago
  Did you feel it was money well spent? I'm nearing 40 and I'm wondering wether i should get into the routine of a scan like that every few years..
  - adhdexperience 3y ago
    I was lucky that I could use some corporate benefit for that, but even out of pocket it would be 30-50 Eur? And most things were within baseline, and things that weren't were close enough (I.e. I don't feel like stressing about cholesterol just yet), but I like I have a baseline to refer to.

bell-cot 3y ago

Abstract: > To understand neurological complications of COVID-19 better both acutely and for recovery, we measured markers of brain injury, inflammatory mediators, and autoantibodies in 203 hospitalised participants; 111 with acute sera (1–11 days post-admission) and 92 convalescent sera (56 with COVID-19-associated neurological diagnoses). Here we show that compared to 60 uninfected controls, [...lots of technical stuff here...] Overall, neurological complications of COVID-19 are associated with evidence of neuroglial injury in both acute and late disease and these correlate with dysregulated innate and adaptive immune responses acutely. So - plenty of "maybe have the lab test his levels of V, W, X, Y, and Z" ideas, for a doctor who is trying to figure out whether or not $Patient is suffering from post-COVID brain injuries. But ~zilch in the way of treatments for $Patient's problems.

im3w1l 3y ago
Seems like this is research that is laying foundations for further research, rather than research that tries help doctors solve problems on the ground. Nothing wrong with that.
defrost 3y ago
> ~zilch in the way of treatments for $Patient's problems. Exactly as you'd reasonably expect at this time given what is being reported here. The only thing that is strongly probable here is the apparent lack of direct COVID effect on the brain (paragraph two of Introduction). This is a paper that follows up on earlier statistical observations that more than an expected number of serious enough to be hospitalised (and a few others) COVID patients have neurological complications. Paper One [1]: "Whatya reckon ablout these numbers?" Paper Two: "Hmm, looks like this might be a thing." as yet, there is no proposed mechanism for COVID indirectly causing neurological complications which obviously limits any treatments for the unknown chain(s) of causation. [1] Neurological and neuropsychiatric complications of COVID-19 in 153 patients: a UK-wide surveillance study (June 25, 2020) https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0366(20)30287-X/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0...
- ljf 3y ago
  I've not read the paper, so I apologise if this is a totally uneducated guess - but earlier that was a lot of concern about blood clotting <1> and micro clots caused by covid, and also concern about changes to blood vessels <2> <1> https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2023-09-01-blood-clots-during-covid-19-may-be-cause-ongoing-cognitive-problems https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2023-09-01-blood-clots-during-covi... <2> https://www.tum.de/en/news-and-events/all-news/press-releases/details/new-approach-to-testing-for-long-covid https://www.tum.de/en/news-and-events/all-news/press-release...
bell-cot 3y ago
Edit: From a "Pure Science" PoV, both the "'...maybe...lab test...' ideas" and the "~zilch in the way of treatments" are reasonable and normal. From a "quickly summarize these results, for actual human beings with actual skin in the this game" PoV, both of those thing are important.

atemerev 3y ago

Long covid has ruined my life and career.

lend000 3y ago
Try living like a monk, if you have the privilege. (Seriously). Cut out all sugar, all refined carbs, all stress, and prioritize sleep, meditation, and relaxation (especially before sleep) above all else, and then gradually amp up the low intensity exercise. It really does help. Some of these tips were from someone who cured their M.S. (a very similar disease) and was describing the process on HN. Source: self. I'm not completely cured, but I've made huge strides and I probably could be if I was better about avoiding stressors / my career ambitions.
- atemerev 3y ago
  I have a family to support, sorry.
  - seper8 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - hiddencost 3y ago
      Pull your head out of your ass.
  - benterix 3y ago
    You can talk to them. Are you a male? Because males live much shorter than women and while some of it is biological, differences between countries show that most of this is social conditioning. Your family will be better off if you can live longer and in better health. Don't make it just your problem that you alone have to solve. Many men before you died because of this,
  - DANmode 3y ago
    I have done this while supporting a family. Saying these are incompatible is a pretty immovable state of mind that will prove harder to fix than COVID.

thenerdhead 3y ago

There isn't much we can do to see if viruses persist in the brain besides an immediate autopsy(which has its flaws). One promising thing I've seen is scanning someone's brain to see brain cell amyloid plaque formations which may indicate an immune response / protection from these viruses. This also could be a means to better understand other diseases like Alzheimer's. But for other brain researchers with regards to covid/long covid, there isn't strong evidence yet to suggest it can reach the brain outside of the current autopsy studies: https://www.neurology.org/doi/10.1212/nxi.0000000000200097 https://www.neurology.org/doi/10.1212/nxi.0000000000200097