5 ms·

I’ve had to buy a lot of furniture and other things for my new house this year, and one of the things that really sticks out to me is that practically every cat

I’ve had to buy a lot of furniture and other things for my new house this year, and one of the things that really sticks out to me is that practically every category of product seems to be split into a bimodal distribution: cheap crap & luxury boutique. There are practically no entries occupying the middle of the market that are on the basic end regarding features & frills but also high-quality. It’s incredibly annoying. I can either get an absolute trash sofa for less than $1,000 or I can get a high-end, high-quality one for $5000+. Now there are definitely sofas that occupy the price range between those, but they’re almost all just wildly overpriced garbage that’s no better than the sub-$1000 junk. The same goes for dining tables, cabinetry, window treatments, cooking appliances, etc. I end up just scouring for “vintage” stuff that’s in decent shape whenever possible. It’s like I have this whole other full-time job trying to find quality used goods because the only things I can just get new immediately are garbage.

gaze 3y ago
Your furniture buying experience exactly mirrors mine. There’s some kind of hard cut at around 5000-7000 dollars to goods that exceed ikea quality.
shepherdjerred 3y ago
That's a mind-boggling anecdote. As an example, Crate and Barrel are known to make good, high-quality couches, and many of them are far less than $5000
- pixl97 3y ago
  Can you get them these days? I was looking at some C&B stuff during the pandemic 2 years ago and they were looking at 7 to 8 month delivery times.
  - pram 3y ago
    I don't think thats necessarily new, I got my couches from C&B in 2012 and it took like 4 months.
  - shepherdjerred 3y ago
    My friend bought a townhouse in Seattle just a few months ago, and bought a C&B (very nice) couch for it at around $3000. It was delivered within a week or two of ordering, so I believe they're available. When I bought my couch in late 2019 it was also delivered within a couple of weeks. Are you custom ordering something? I believe that common configurations ship immediately, but any kind of customization requires that multiple-month lead time.
- Spivak 3y ago
  I think you and the parent likely have different standards of quality. Crate and Barrel makes nicer couches but they're still made the same way with the same materials as what you get from Value City Furniture. They're still engineered wood, polyblend fabric and filling, and "genuine" leather. It's really hard to find anything non-antique that uses better materials or craftsmanship. They do exist and I own a few pieces but the prices for such things will make you blush. There's no middle anymore where you forgo labor intensive details like hand-carved detailing, complex bends and shapes, hand stitching, embroidered patterns, or fancy internal mechanisms but keep the "can still last generations" build quality for somewhat reasonable prices.
  - im_down_w_otp 3y ago
    Yes, this exactly.
  - shepherdjerred 3y ago
    I don't think this is true. This is (more or less) the couch that I've owned since late 2019: https://www.crateandbarrel.com/axis-2-piece-sectional-sofa/s226453 https://www.crateandbarrel.com/axis-2-piece-sectional-sofa/s... From the page: * $3500 (I believe I paid $3000 in 2019) * Frames are benchmade with hardwood that's kiln-dried to prevent warping * Hardwood legs * Polyfoam seat cushions wrapped in fiber-down blend and encased in downproof ticking (is this "bad"? I think they're plenty comfortably and haven't shown any significant wear in the past four years) Their leather version is $5000, so maybe the claim that good leather couches start at around $5000 has more truth: https://www.crateandbarrel.com/axis-leather-2-piece-sectional-sofa/s446121 https://www.crateandbarrel.com/axis-leather-2-piece-sectiona...
- xp84 3y ago
  I went to try to see conclusively if you were correct. A pretty basic sofa at C&B is $1,800 - $2,000. In 1990 you could buy a basic Bassett sofa at J.C. Penney for $599 [1] -- $1407 in 2023 dollars. Furniture from Sears and Penney's (regardless of whether it was fashionable) was of fine quality, in that it held up for decades. I know because we had furniture like this in our home at the time. So this tells me that the price for a sofa (that is made domestically and not slapped together from particle board, a half inch of foam, and about 4 springs) has gone up by 25-30%. And I think you're saying that therefore, this isn't an utterly crazy price hike. I'd agree it's modest. Thing is, I think what's changed is demographics. In 1990, a LOT of people bought furniture at a department store or furniture store. They could afford it, but also here's the interesting part: It was much more rare then to find a $250 sofa. If that was your budget, you just bought a used good sofa and you probably got a better product. When super cheap everything appeared in the late 90s, it drove out the good manufactured goods, and many of the stores that sold those good items. People felt like buying the quality of things they used to buy would be extravagant, since they could buy an IKEA or Walmart version for less than half, and also, many families started to be worse off financially than their parents' generation had been, adding to their feelings of frugality. Unfortunately, this crap is so shoddy in most cases that it's actually more expensive when you factor in its lifetime. [1] https://christmas.musetechnical.com/ShowCatalogPage/1990-JCPenney-Fall-Winter-Catalog/1054 https://christmas.musetechnical.com/ShowCatalogPage/1990-JCP... * Some present-day comparisons: - https://www.jcpenney.com/p/signature-design-by-ashley-camila-sofa/ppr5007255040?pTmplType=regular&deptId=dept20000011&catId=cat1002460008 https://www.jcpenney.com/p/signature-design-by-ashley-camila... - https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/paerup-sofa-gunnared-beige-s29389463/ https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/paerup-sofa-gunnared-beige-s293...
  - shepherdjerred 3y ago
    My only point was that today you don't need to spend $5000 for a "good" couch. I don't know about the historical context.
    - xp84 3y ago
      To be clear, I wasn't refuting you -- you were correct.
- tomjakubowski 3y ago
  Does Crate and Barrel actually make furniture? I thought they were a retailer only, a middleman between the consumer and a white label manufacturer. I don't mean to detract from your point with this - I've had a few things here and there from them, I agree they sell quality stuff.
  - shepherdjerred 3y ago
    I'm not really sure. In any case (almost) everything I've gotten from them has been durable, so I keep going back.
lucas_membrane 3y ago
> absolute trash for less than $1,000 or high-end, high-quality for $5000+ I've been noticing the same thing. But I also suspect that many people pay a little more for stuff, expecting that to make it better. The number of brands and variety of prices one can find on-line is astounding, and it must be much larger than the number of factories in Asia actually making the stuff.
darth_avocado 3y ago
The luxury boutique ones are also junk. I got a very expensive sofa from a boutique brand and I regret it every bit. In less than a year, the cushions are basically useless. All cheap junk, made in some third world country in Asia.
- lastofthemojito 3y ago
  Well they might be, and they might not be. The old saying "you get what you pay for" ought to be "you get at most what you pay for". If you buy the expensive product, it might be higher quality, or it might be the cheap junk with a shiny logo. I bought a small dining table and 4 chairs from a nearby store that specializes in Scandinavian furniture. I ended up mixing and matching 2 pairs of chairs because I liked the contrast of 2 different styles at different sides of the table. Anyhow, fast forward about 15 years and 4 house moves and the table and 2 of the chairs are rock solid. The other 2 chairs are wobbly junk that I've repeatedly tried to fix but am about to give up on. The table and 2 good chairs were made in Denmark, the 2 shit chairs were made in Malaysia and are just "Scandinavian style" I guess. So yeah, decent stuff is still out there, but perhaps it's harder than ever to parse the marketplace and figure out which items are the high-quality ones. Even if you go to a store with lots of quality stuff, they might have some junk mixed in as they try to expand their market.
adrianN 3y ago
I lived my whole life using cheap Ikea furniture and have zero complaints.
nox100 3y ago
I'm curious. My previous soft was from Ikea. Of course Ikea makes cheap disposable furniture but this sofa, IMO, was not one of those. It was made of real wood, not particle board. It was super well designed. It assembled into 4 parts using slots and a few very large steal bolts and was also easy to disassemble for moving. It's entire cover was easy to remove so you could clean stains or easily replace it. Same for the cushions. And it was comfortable. It was under $1000 (note: I know Ikea redesigns things so the same soft today might not be as good as that same model from 2016) Moving overseas I had to buy a new sofa in 2021. Middle of COVID, Ikea didn't have any I couldn't wait. The sofa I ended up with is the cheapest shit sofa I've ever owned. The materials are clearly inferior. No part of it is cleanable. The cushions are one sided so can not flip them in 4 directions, they only fit one way. I got tired of looking and settled on these though, expecting to replace them. Anyway, my point was (a) I understand your POV but also (b) there are possibly some good under $1000 sofas. I've had similar luck with a few Ikea dining room tables that were solid wood, not particle board.
- nox100 3y ago
  Let me also add, in many other categories, I've rarely found a correlation between price, brand, and quality. Worst luggage I ever owned was Rimowa. It was the most expensive I've bought and broke several times. They'd fix it, but who wants to spend their vacation taking their luggage to the repair shop (and lugging it full from the airport to the hotel while it's broke) Worst and most expensive jacket I ever bought, Paul Smith, got a hole in the main pocket within 30 days and the hanging hook in the collar broke in 2 weeks. Worst jeans I ever bought, Diesel. Ripped in 1 month.
  - shiroiuma 3y ago
    >Worst jeans I ever bought, Diesel. Ripped in 1 month. Isn't that supposed to be a feature on that brand?
  - jlangenauer 3y ago
    Both those brands are exactly that - brands - where a lot of the cost of the product is recycled right back into advertising to convince you that the brands are actually worth the prices they charge. When buying clothing, it's worthwhile to spend a little bit of time learning what makes quality clothing and what doesn't. That's very helpful in avoiding over-branded garbage being sold for far more than it cost to make in a sweatshop.
Centigonal 3y ago
I'm happy with my Article sofa and coffee table set. Real wood and marble, but foam & polyester upholstery.
euroderf 3y ago
> Now there are definitely sofas that occupy the price range between those, but they’re almost all just wildly overpriced garbage that’s no better than the sub-$1000 junk. The same goes for bicycles. Except that the "junk" are mostly functional (if not durable) and might be less attractive to thieves.
theshrike79 3y ago
Yea, I've been trying to find a proper TV stand/entertainment center. The options are: Ikea Cardboard (my current choice), or design/looks first boutique stuff that's not meant to hold anything except a TV (no holes for wiring etc - things that the Ikea one has...) Currently I'm looking at local carpenters, it's gonna be about the same for a fully custom built hardwood unit vs the boutique choice.
psadri 3y ago
The problem in being in the middle ground - what do you optimize for in a way that is easily marketable? The easiest answers are: cheapest (quality be damned) or best quality (affordability be damned). It’s hard to communicate a compromise between value and quality and that’s why that zone is empty. I believe this is a by product of online shopping where brands only get seconds to communicate their value prop.
nextworddev 3y ago
Isn’t that what CB2 is? Medium category
a13o 3y ago
This is a self-limiting belief. The middle category exists, if you go looking for it. It's still a second job to find it though. You need to learn about the materials, construction techniques, and even manufacturing and white label trends of the industry in question. It's exhausting. But after spending a month or two studying, you will be able to find pieces constructed to last a lifetime. For sofas try the Insider's Guide to Furniture. Plenty of brands in the middle range using hardwood construction, made in the USA, with high density foam.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
nunez 3y ago
Mid-tier still exists; you've just got to look for it. We purchased a $3200 couch that is definitely mid-tier for its size and it's been a fantastic value so far.
- dmoy 3y ago
  Yea we got something from... uh... (Insert place I'll go look up), which let us select the specific fabric, and took awhile (months?), but was pretty solid. For yea, around $2.5-$3k for a rather huge couch - something like two separate 2m couches that fit together in an L shape. Was able to select very durable fabric too
  - dmoy 3y ago
    West Elm? Guess they're >$3k now, but still well under $5k
jacobbudin 3y ago
There are well-known furniture makers in the middle, including Room & Board and Stickley. Consider this Bogleheads thread: https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=327476 https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=327476
persolb 3y ago
There are economics papers about ‘the vanishing middle’ that explain why products go bimodal. (I can’t find them right now; google-foo is failing me.) The gist I remember is that people lock onto a single differentiator: normally cost or quality. This moves most of producers to those outside points. Companies ‘trying’ to stay in the middle end up being more expensive (on a cost/quality measure) because they can’t reach mass production as easily as either the cheap or fancy.

gaze 3y ago

Your furniture buying experience exactly mirrors mine. There’s some kind of hard cut at around 5000-7000 dollars to goods that exceed ikea quality.

shepherdjerred 3y ago

That's a mind-boggling anecdote. As an example, Crate and Barrel are known to make good, high-quality couches, and many of them are far less than $5000

pixl97 3y ago
Can you get them these days? I was looking at some C&B stuff during the pandemic 2 years ago and they were looking at 7 to 8 month delivery times.
- pram 3y ago
  I don't think thats necessarily new, I got my couches from C&B in 2012 and it took like 4 months.
- shepherdjerred 3y ago
  My friend bought a townhouse in Seattle just a few months ago, and bought a C&B (very nice) couch for it at around $3000. It was delivered within a week or two of ordering, so I believe they're available. When I bought my couch in late 2019 it was also delivered within a couple of weeks. Are you custom ordering something? I believe that common configurations ship immediately, but any kind of customization requires that multiple-month lead time.
Spivak 3y ago
I think you and the parent likely have different standards of quality. Crate and Barrel makes nicer couches but they're still made the same way with the same materials as what you get from Value City Furniture. They're still engineered wood, polyblend fabric and filling, and "genuine" leather. It's really hard to find anything non-antique that uses better materials or craftsmanship. They do exist and I own a few pieces but the prices for such things will make you blush. There's no middle anymore where you forgo labor intensive details like hand-carved detailing, complex bends and shapes, hand stitching, embroidered patterns, or fancy internal mechanisms but keep the "can still last generations" build quality for somewhat reasonable prices.
- im_down_w_otp 3y ago
  Yes, this exactly.
- shepherdjerred 3y ago
  I don't think this is true. This is (more or less) the couch that I've owned since late 2019: https://www.crateandbarrel.com/axis-2-piece-sectional-sofa/s226453 https://www.crateandbarrel.com/axis-2-piece-sectional-sofa/s... From the page: * $3500 (I believe I paid $3000 in 2019) * Frames are benchmade with hardwood that's kiln-dried to prevent warping * Hardwood legs * Polyfoam seat cushions wrapped in fiber-down blend and encased in downproof ticking (is this "bad"? I think they're plenty comfortably and haven't shown any significant wear in the past four years) Their leather version is $5000, so maybe the claim that good leather couches start at around $5000 has more truth: https://www.crateandbarrel.com/axis-leather-2-piece-sectional-sofa/s446121 https://www.crateandbarrel.com/axis-leather-2-piece-sectiona...
xp84 3y ago
I went to try to see conclusively if you were correct. A pretty basic sofa at C&B is $1,800 - $2,000. In 1990 you could buy a basic Bassett sofa at J.C. Penney for $599 [1] -- $1407 in 2023 dollars. Furniture from Sears and Penney's (regardless of whether it was fashionable) was of fine quality, in that it held up for decades. I know because we had furniture like this in our home at the time. So this tells me that the price for a sofa (that is made domestically and not slapped together from particle board, a half inch of foam, and about 4 springs) has gone up by 25-30%. And I think you're saying that therefore, this isn't an utterly crazy price hike. I'd agree it's modest. Thing is, I think what's changed is demographics. In 1990, a LOT of people bought furniture at a department store or furniture store. They could afford it, but also here's the interesting part: It was much more rare then to find a $250 sofa. If that was your budget, you just bought a used good sofa and you probably got a better product. When super cheap everything appeared in the late 90s, it drove out the good manufactured goods, and many of the stores that sold those good items. People felt like buying the quality of things they used to buy would be extravagant, since they could buy an IKEA or Walmart version for less than half, and also, many families started to be worse off financially than their parents' generation had been, adding to their feelings of frugality. Unfortunately, this crap is so shoddy in most cases that it's actually more expensive when you factor in its lifetime. [1] https://christmas.musetechnical.com/ShowCatalogPage/1990-JCPenney-Fall-Winter-Catalog/1054 https://christmas.musetechnical.com/ShowCatalogPage/1990-JCP... * Some present-day comparisons: - https://www.jcpenney.com/p/signature-design-by-ashley-camila-sofa/ppr5007255040?pTmplType=regular&deptId=dept20000011&catId=cat1002460008 https://www.jcpenney.com/p/signature-design-by-ashley-camila... - https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/paerup-sofa-gunnared-beige-s29389463/ https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/paerup-sofa-gunnared-beige-s293...
- shepherdjerred 3y ago
  My only point was that today you don't need to spend $5000 for a "good" couch. I don't know about the historical context.
  - xp84 3y ago
    To be clear, I wasn't refuting you -- you were correct.
tomjakubowski 3y ago
Does Crate and Barrel actually make furniture? I thought they were a retailer only, a middleman between the consumer and a white label manufacturer. I don't mean to detract from your point with this - I've had a few things here and there from them, I agree they sell quality stuff.
- shepherdjerred 3y ago
  I'm not really sure. In any case (almost) everything I've gotten from them has been durable, so I keep going back.

lucas_membrane 3y ago

> absolute trash for less than $1,000 or high-end, high-quality for $5000+ I've been noticing the same thing. But I also suspect that many people pay a little more for stuff, expecting that to make it better. The number of brands and variety of prices one can find on-line is astounding, and it must be much larger than the number of factories in Asia actually making the stuff.

darth_avocado 3y ago

The luxury boutique ones are also junk. I got a very expensive sofa from a boutique brand and I regret it every bit. In less than a year, the cushions are basically useless. All cheap junk, made in some third world country in Asia.

lastofthemojito 3y ago
Well they might be, and they might not be. The old saying "you get what you pay for" ought to be "you get at most what you pay for". If you buy the expensive product, it might be higher quality, or it might be the cheap junk with a shiny logo. I bought a small dining table and 4 chairs from a nearby store that specializes in Scandinavian furniture. I ended up mixing and matching 2 pairs of chairs because I liked the contrast of 2 different styles at different sides of the table. Anyhow, fast forward about 15 years and 4 house moves and the table and 2 of the chairs are rock solid. The other 2 chairs are wobbly junk that I've repeatedly tried to fix but am about to give up on. The table and 2 good chairs were made in Denmark, the 2 shit chairs were made in Malaysia and are just "Scandinavian style" I guess. So yeah, decent stuff is still out there, but perhaps it's harder than ever to parse the marketplace and figure out which items are the high-quality ones. Even if you go to a store with lots of quality stuff, they might have some junk mixed in as they try to expand their market.

adrianN 3y ago

I lived my whole life using cheap Ikea furniture and have zero complaints.

nox100 3y ago

I'm curious. My previous soft was from Ikea. Of course Ikea makes cheap disposable furniture but this sofa, IMO, was not one of those. It was made of real wood, not particle board. It was super well designed. It assembled into 4 parts using slots and a few very large steal bolts and was also easy to disassemble for moving. It's entire cover was easy to remove so you could clean stains or easily replace it. Same for the cushions. And it was comfortable. It was under $1000 (note: I know Ikea redesigns things so the same soft today might not be as good as that same model from 2016) Moving overseas I had to buy a new sofa in 2021. Middle of COVID, Ikea didn't have any I couldn't wait. The sofa I ended up with is the cheapest shit sofa I've ever owned. The materials are clearly inferior. No part of it is cleanable. The cushions are one sided so can not flip them in 4 directions, they only fit one way. I got tired of looking and settled on these though, expecting to replace them. Anyway, my point was (a) I understand your POV but also (b) there are possibly some good under $1000 sofas. I've had similar luck with a few Ikea dining room tables that were solid wood, not particle board.

nox100 3y ago
Let me also add, in many other categories, I've rarely found a correlation between price, brand, and quality. Worst luggage I ever owned was Rimowa. It was the most expensive I've bought and broke several times. They'd fix it, but who wants to spend their vacation taking their luggage to the repair shop (and lugging it full from the airport to the hotel while it's broke) Worst and most expensive jacket I ever bought, Paul Smith, got a hole in the main pocket within 30 days and the hanging hook in the collar broke in 2 weeks. Worst jeans I ever bought, Diesel. Ripped in 1 month.
- shiroiuma 3y ago
  >Worst jeans I ever bought, Diesel. Ripped in 1 month. Isn't that supposed to be a feature on that brand?
- jlangenauer 3y ago
  Both those brands are exactly that - brands - where a lot of the cost of the product is recycled right back into advertising to convince you that the brands are actually worth the prices they charge. When buying clothing, it's worthwhile to spend a little bit of time learning what makes quality clothing and what doesn't. That's very helpful in avoiding over-branded garbage being sold for far more than it cost to make in a sweatshop.

Centigonal 3y ago

I'm happy with my Article sofa and coffee table set. Real wood and marble, but foam & polyester upholstery.

euroderf 3y ago

> Now there are definitely sofas that occupy the price range between those, but they’re almost all just wildly overpriced garbage that’s no better than the sub-$1000 junk. The same goes for bicycles. Except that the "junk" are mostly functional (if not durable) and might be less attractive to thieves.

theshrike79 3y ago

Yea, I've been trying to find a proper TV stand/entertainment center. The options are: Ikea Cardboard (my current choice), or design/looks first boutique stuff that's not meant to hold anything except a TV (no holes for wiring etc - things that the Ikea one has...) Currently I'm looking at local carpenters, it's gonna be about the same for a fully custom built hardwood unit vs the boutique choice.

psadri 3y ago

The problem in being in the middle ground - what do you optimize for in a way that is easily marketable? The easiest answers are: cheapest (quality be damned) or best quality (affordability be damned). It’s hard to communicate a compromise between value and quality and that’s why that zone is empty. I believe this is a by product of online shopping where brands only get seconds to communicate their value prop.

nextworddev 3y ago

Isn’t that what CB2 is? Medium category

a13o 3y ago

This is a self-limiting belief. The middle category exists, if you go looking for it. It's still a second job to find it though. You need to learn about the materials, construction techniques, and even manufacturing and white label trends of the industry in question. It's exhausting. But after spending a month or two studying, you will be able to find pieces constructed to last a lifetime. For sofas try the Insider's Guide to Furniture. Plenty of brands in the middle range using hardwood construction, made in the USA, with high density foam.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

nunez 3y ago

Mid-tier still exists; you've just got to look for it. We purchased a $3200 couch that is definitely mid-tier for its size and it's been a fantastic value so far.

dmoy 3y ago
Yea we got something from... uh... (Insert place I'll go look up), which let us select the specific fabric, and took awhile (months?), but was pretty solid. For yea, around $2.5-$3k for a rather huge couch - something like two separate 2m couches that fit together in an L shape. Was able to select very durable fabric too
- dmoy 3y ago
  West Elm? Guess they're >$3k now, but still well under $5k

jacobbudin 3y ago

There are well-known furniture makers in the middle, including Room & Board and Stickley. Consider this Bogleheads thread: https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=327476 https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=327476

persolb 3y ago

There are economics papers about ‘the vanishing middle’ that explain why products go bimodal. (I can’t find them right now; google-foo is failing me.) The gist I remember is that people lock onto a single differentiator: normally cost or quality. This moves most of producers to those outside points. Companies ‘trying’ to stay in the middle end up being more expensive (on a cost/quality measure) because they can’t reach mass production as easily as either the cheap or fancy.