4 ms·

Which we have already. And that wouod be a great solution to the problem of storing electricity / energy. And it could even use, partially, existing gas infrast

by hef19898 3y ago

Which we have already. And that wouod be a great solution to the problem of storing electricity / energy. And it could even use, partially, existing gas infrastructure. Green hydrogen absolutey is a thing, bow we just need to deploy it at scale.

Manuel_D 3y ago
No, almost all of our ammonia is produced via the Haber process which emits carbon dioxide. Less than a tenth of one percent of our hydrogen is produced via green hydrogen: > As of 2021, green hydrogen accounted for less than 0.04% of total hydrogen production. Its cost relative to hydrogen derived from fossil fuels is the main reason green hydrogen is in less demand. For example, hydrogen produced by electrolysis powered by solar power was about 25 times more expensive than that derived from hydrocarbons in 2018. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_hydrogen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_hydrogen
- hef19898 3y ago
  I said we mist roll it out at scale, didn't I? The tech is there, and it works, now we have to build it. You know, like Musk did with EVs and charging networks.
  - Manuel_D 3y ago
    And as per the article, it's 25 times more expensive than existing hydrogen sources. By comparison, the economics nuclear powered ships are not that much worse than conventional propulsion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NS_Savannah#Economics_of_nuclear_propulsion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NS_Savannah#Economics_of_nucle...
    - hef19898 3y ago
      Of course not. The right mix is important. But honestly, I reached the point where I claim the same "just build it" approach the pro-nuclear crowd is using regardless of data and facta. Especially since I know from a project I was involved in before COVID hit, that green hydrogen produced PV is absolutely feasible and commercially viable. To do so at tue scale needed requires political action and subsidies, and the tech has still a lot of room for improvement. I say this is good news.
      - Manuel_D 3y ago
        > Especially since I know from a project I was involved in before COVID hit, that green hydrogen produced PV is absolutely feasible and commercially viable. It'd be really great to link to that project and actually demonstrate this claim of commercial viability. We have at least one demonstration of a nuclear powered merchant ship operating over the span of a decade. Can we say the same for a green-fuel powered vessel?
        hef19898 3y ago
        Regarding a ship running on LNG: https://www.ship-technology.com/projects/viking-energy-cargo-vessel/?cf-view https://www.ship-technology.com/projects/viking-energy-cargo... The same vessel will be launched early next year with an ammonia fuel cell. LNG can be produced using green energy, the actual engine doesn't care how the fuel was produced. Regarding the green hydrogen project: it was a proposed pilot production site to produce green hydrogen. And the business case was actually positive. No idea where that project is now, tuey needed EU funding and that was hard to come by during Covid. And after, I stopped being a freelance consultant.
        Manuel_D 3y ago
        Ships running off natural gas are nothing new. LNG carriers have been propelled by natural gas for decades. The real challenge is producing carbon-neutral natural gas, which your link says nothing about. Synthetic natural gas has all the same problems as green hydrogen, with the added challenge of sequestering carbon from the atmosphere. It's only been cheaply produced using byproduct CO2 from industrial processes. Which isn't actually carbon-neutral, it's just using CO2 that would have been released into the atmosphere anyway.
        hef19898 3y ago
        There you go: https://www.valves-community.com/en/cryogenic-air-gases/synthetic-lng/ https://www.valves-community.com/en/cryogenic-air-gases/synt... But honestly, why am I doing your internet searches for you? And why don't you know any of this already?
g8oz 3y ago
Yes and while it may be early days for green hydrogen, it once was for solar and wind as well. And as it did with solar the European Union is leading the way in developing policy frameworks that will grow the industry. https://energy.ec.europa.eu/topics/energy-systems-integration/hydrogen_en https://energy.ec.europa.eu/topics/energy-systems-integratio...

Manuel_D 3y ago

No, almost all of our ammonia is produced via the Haber process which emits carbon dioxide. Less than a tenth of one percent of our hydrogen is produced via green hydrogen: > As of 2021, green hydrogen accounted for less than 0.04% of total hydrogen production. Its cost relative to hydrogen derived from fossil fuels is the main reason green hydrogen is in less demand. For example, hydrogen produced by electrolysis powered by solar power was about 25 times more expensive than that derived from hydrocarbons in 2018. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_hydrogen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_hydrogen

hef19898 3y ago
I said we mist roll it out at scale, didn't I? The tech is there, and it works, now we have to build it. You know, like Musk did with EVs and charging networks.
- Manuel_D 3y ago
  And as per the article, it's 25 times more expensive than existing hydrogen sources. By comparison, the economics nuclear powered ships are not that much worse than conventional propulsion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NS_Savannah#Economics_of_nuclear_propulsion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NS_Savannah#Economics_of_nucle...
  - hef19898 3y ago
    Of course not. The right mix is important. But honestly, I reached the point where I claim the same "just build it" approach the pro-nuclear crowd is using regardless of data and facta. Especially since I know from a project I was involved in before COVID hit, that green hydrogen produced PV is absolutely feasible and commercially viable. To do so at tue scale needed requires political action and subsidies, and the tech has still a lot of room for improvement. I say this is good news.
    - Manuel_D 3y ago
      > Especially since I know from a project I was involved in before COVID hit, that green hydrogen produced PV is absolutely feasible and commercially viable. It'd be really great to link to that project and actually demonstrate this claim of commercial viability. We have at least one demonstration of a nuclear powered merchant ship operating over the span of a decade. Can we say the same for a green-fuel powered vessel?
      - hef19898 3y ago
        Regarding a ship running on LNG: https://www.ship-technology.com/projects/viking-energy-cargo-vessel/?cf-view https://www.ship-technology.com/projects/viking-energy-cargo... The same vessel will be launched early next year with an ammonia fuel cell. LNG can be produced using green energy, the actual engine doesn't care how the fuel was produced. Regarding the green hydrogen project: it was a proposed pilot production site to produce green hydrogen. And the business case was actually positive. No idea where that project is now, tuey needed EU funding and that was hard to come by during Covid. And after, I stopped being a freelance consultant.
        Manuel_D 3y ago
        Ships running off natural gas are nothing new. LNG carriers have been propelled by natural gas for decades. The real challenge is producing carbon-neutral natural gas, which your link says nothing about. Synthetic natural gas has all the same problems as green hydrogen, with the added challenge of sequestering carbon from the atmosphere. It's only been cheaply produced using byproduct CO2 from industrial processes. Which isn't actually carbon-neutral, it's just using CO2 that would have been released into the atmosphere anyway.
        hef19898 3y ago
        There you go: https://www.valves-community.com/en/cryogenic-air-gases/synthetic-lng/ https://www.valves-community.com/en/cryogenic-air-gases/synt... But honestly, why am I doing your internet searches for you? And why don't you know any of this already?

g8oz 3y ago

Yes and while it may be early days for green hydrogen, it once was for solar and wind as well. And as it did with solar the European Union is leading the way in developing policy frameworks that will grow the industry. https://energy.ec.europa.eu/topics/energy-systems-integration/hydrogen_en https://energy.ec.europa.eu/topics/energy-systems-integratio...