7 ms·

How many English majors are still in "English" at age 40? Many of them will have exited the workforce , started their own business, changed careers, or leveled

by patio11 15y ago

How many English majors are still in "English" at age 40? Many of them will have exited the workforce , started their own business, changed careers, or leveled up high enough that their occupational classification the government uses changes. Programmers do all these things, too. I love programming. I didn't even make it to thirty as a "programmer"! (P.S. There exist lots of benefits to not calling yourself a programmer.)

over40guy4 15y ago
I doubt many 40+ programmers are going to come out in support of this article. In cases of discrimination, you are labeled a crybaby so it's better to just stay quite. HN is mostly young and the only 40+ ones here are the type who like puzzles or in top 1 percentile of programming (e.g. patio11). For a vast majority of 40+ programmers, the reality is as grim as painted in this article. If you are not in top 1 percentile of programming abilities, you better move to management. This is hard for someone who isn't verbally aggressive. Positions for management require X years of managing Y employees so if didn't make the move early on, you are doomed. Given that there isn't a puzzle/test type of way to rank managers, the management positions get doled out as opposed to competed for. You have to be in the shoes of a 40+ programmer who is not in top 1 percentile to know this :-(
- ucr 15y ago
  Given that there isn't a puzzle/test type of way to rank managers False. The test is: how much money did your team make? (For the truly crafty, the test is: how much money did your team make relative to the initial investment and risk?)
  - drucken 15y ago
    You reveal a short-termist Anglo-Capitalist bias. This is not how good managers are assessed in other forms of capitalism or business. Consistent long-term business growth is far more important in some, e.g. in Germanic and Scandinavian countries. In general, you could say a good manager meets the targets that have been set by higher management, whatever they may be. Yes, I am a manager.
    - ucr 15y ago
      You're more right than my response was. I just wanted to point out that tests for managers do exist, which was what was under dispute.
- dabent 15y ago
  "The only 40+ ones here are ... in top 1 percentile of programming" Thanks. (Although I do like puzzles as much as the next HN member)
- patio11 15y ago
  While I appreciate the praise, I am likely not in the top 1% of programming ability. (People often say that I am, because I'm pretty good at written and oral communication. Take note, young impressionable HNers, because this strongly suggests reprioritizing which trees to put your talent points into.) As to your own circumstances: there exist many clueful companies which would hire you. Find my email if you want to talk specifics. This is not a market where anyone skilled should be hurting for offers.
  - Poiesis 15y ago
    To add to patio11's note: I don't have as much social clout here as he, but believe me when I say that people skills (I'm lumping in various communication skills here) are way, way more important than technical skills. Reprioritizing is right. In my opinion, his success is due more to his "soft" skills; he's closer to a one-percenter [grin/duck/run] in terms of his communication skills than his technical ones. Even so, this isn't rocket science. Just like any other skill, effective communication can be taught. Like many other pursuits, it doesn't take long to distinguish yourself just because there's so much rubbish out there.
- adrianhoward 15y ago
  HN is mostly young Interesting. I wasn't aware of an age breakdown of HN readers. Could you point me to it? Most of the people I personally know on HN are over 30... but that may be selection bias on my part :-) Given that there isn't a puzzle/test type of way to rank managers, the management positions get doled out as opposed to competed for That may be true of some organisations, but certainly not all. Managers get judged on a bunch of metrics in many organisations... often bad ones unfortunately (then again - so are puzzle questions for developers :-)
edanm 15y ago
I know that "don't call yourself a programmer" is advice you often give. So let me ask you a question - I'm now starting a freelance company. We are 3 programmers. Right now, we build web and mobile applications for hire. What should we be doing to "rebrand" ourselves in a way that will get us more money? I ask this here and not in email in the hopes that your answer will help other people as well.
- patio11 15y ago
  What should we be doing to "rebrand" ourselves in a way that will get us more money? We solve businesses problems and, in the process, make them gobsmacking amounts of money by increasing revenue and cutting costs. Computers and telephones are sometimes involved.
  - edanm 15y ago
    Alright. Given that, how do you find customers? It's pretty easy for me to market us as "we do freelance programming". It's something most people that I talk to understand. I'm not sure how to market myself as a "solver of business problems". Keep in mind we don't really know SEO that well.
    - alinajaf 15y ago
      I'd like to know patio11's opinion on this too, but for me, networking face-to-face with non-technical business people has done a lot to show me how valuable the basic knowledge I _do_ have is. Though you may not think you know much about SEO or conversion, explaining the benefits that you pick up from casual reading on HN tends to bring the business cards out pretty quick.
    - rmc 15y ago
      I dunno, people who know programming know they need progammers. What kind of problems can be solved with programming, but the people don't know what programming is?
- adrianhoward 15y ago

by patio11 15y ago

over40guy4 15y ago

I doubt many 40+ programmers are going to come out in support of this article. In cases of discrimination, you are labeled a crybaby so it's better to just stay quite. HN is mostly young and the only 40+ ones here are the type who like puzzles or in top 1 percentile of programming (e.g. patio11). For a vast majority of 40+ programmers, the reality is as grim as painted in this article. If you are not in top 1 percentile of programming abilities, you better move to management. This is hard for someone who isn't verbally aggressive. Positions for management require X years of managing Y employees so if didn't make the move early on, you are doomed. Given that there isn't a puzzle/test type of way to rank managers, the management positions get doled out as opposed to competed for. You have to be in the shoes of a 40+ programmer who is not in top 1 percentile to know this :-(

ucr 15y ago
Given that there isn't a puzzle/test type of way to rank managers False. The test is: how much money did your team make? (For the truly crafty, the test is: how much money did your team make relative to the initial investment and risk?)
- drucken 15y ago
  You reveal a short-termist Anglo-Capitalist bias. This is not how good managers are assessed in other forms of capitalism or business. Consistent long-term business growth is far more important in some, e.g. in Germanic and Scandinavian countries. In general, you could say a good manager meets the targets that have been set by higher management, whatever they may be. Yes, I am a manager.
  - ucr 15y ago
    You're more right than my response was. I just wanted to point out that tests for managers do exist, which was what was under dispute.
dabent 15y ago
"The only 40+ ones here are ... in top 1 percentile of programming" Thanks. (Although I do like puzzles as much as the next HN member)
patio11 15y ago
While I appreciate the praise, I am likely not in the top 1% of programming ability. (People often say that I am, because I'm pretty good at written and oral communication. Take note, young impressionable HNers, because this strongly suggests reprioritizing which trees to put your talent points into.) As to your own circumstances: there exist many clueful companies which would hire you. Find my email if you want to talk specifics. This is not a market where anyone skilled should be hurting for offers.
- Poiesis 15y ago
  To add to patio11's note: I don't have as much social clout here as he, but believe me when I say that people skills (I'm lumping in various communication skills here) are way, way more important than technical skills. Reprioritizing is right. In my opinion, his success is due more to his "soft" skills; he's closer to a one-percenter [grin/duck/run] in terms of his communication skills than his technical ones. Even so, this isn't rocket science. Just like any other skill, effective communication can be taught. Like many other pursuits, it doesn't take long to distinguish yourself just because there's so much rubbish out there.
adrianhoward 15y ago
HN is mostly young Interesting. I wasn't aware of an age breakdown of HN readers. Could you point me to it? Most of the people I personally know on HN are over 30... but that may be selection bias on my part :-) Given that there isn't a puzzle/test type of way to rank managers, the management positions get doled out as opposed to competed for That may be true of some organisations, but certainly not all. Managers get judged on a bunch of metrics in many organisations... often bad ones unfortunately (then again - so are puzzle questions for developers :-)

edanm 15y ago

I know that "don't call yourself a programmer" is advice you often give. So let me ask you a question - I'm now starting a freelance company. We are 3 programmers. Right now, we build web and mobile applications for hire. What should we be doing to "rebrand" ourselves in a way that will get us more money? I ask this here and not in email in the hopes that your answer will help other people as well.

patio11 15y ago
What should we be doing to "rebrand" ourselves in a way that will get us more money? We solve businesses problems and, in the process, make them gobsmacking amounts of money by increasing revenue and cutting costs. Computers and telephones are sometimes involved.
- edanm 15y ago
  Alright. Given that, how do you find customers? It's pretty easy for me to market us as "we do freelance programming". It's something most people that I talk to understand. I'm not sure how to market myself as a "solver of business problems". Keep in mind we don't really know SEO that well.
  - alinajaf 15y ago
    I'd like to know patio11's opinion on this too, but for me, networking face-to-face with non-technical business people has done a lot to show me how valuable the basic knowledge I _do_ have is. Though you may not think you know much about SEO or conversion, explaining the benefits that you pick up from casual reading on HN tends to bring the business cards out pretty quick.
  - rmc 15y ago
    I dunno, people who know programming know they need progammers. What kind of problems can be solved with programming, but the people don't know what programming is?
adrianhoward 15y ago