4 ms·

The messaging argument (within the comment section, that is) is tough since it's a game of innuendo. Folks who hate the modern messaging are trying to find any

The messaging argument (within the comment section, that is) is tough since it's a game of innuendo. Folks who hate the modern messaging are trying to find any criticism except to point out their distaste for DEI casting, plotlines, and messaging. Folks who are more supportive of those things tend to try to "out" the first group, and ask specifically what it is about the messaging that people don't like. eg: "Old movies had contemporary moral messages. Why don't you like _these_ messages?" Both sides of course have some validity in their argument. A lot of the modern movies are simply bad in addition to having DEI messaging. And if we're being honest, some folks' primary concerns are the DEI issues alone.

Joeboy 3y ago
I just don't think there's much point in having the conversation unless people can elucidate what exactly they're complaining about. All films have "messaging".
- everdrive 3y ago
  I think there's some merit to that point of view, but at least in the narrow context of HN, I don't want to contribute to culture war internet arguments.
- Levitz 3y ago
  Which is precisely why it's impossible to point at exactly what the problem is. Yes, all films have messaging, so why did messaging change? Was it not pro-women enough? The Little Mermaid came out in 89 with great success. Not diverse enough? If there is one thing that Disney deserves flak for is for plundering tales from all around the world. Pocahontas and Mulan were also massively successful, long ago. The most recent "incidents" I recall are the new Little Mermaid being black, the seven little dwarves being of various ethnicities (With a Hispanic Snow White) and the whole deal regarding Star Wars. It gives the feeling that the messaging was deemed not enough. It's not enough to have films like Mulan or El Dorado, or Lilo & Stitch or Aladin, with a plethora of cultures and races, that which is white and male has to changed on top of that. I can't even imagine the reactions if Disney dared turn Mulan black, but The Little Mermaid is Danish, and since that country is predominantly white, it's fair game since that's what US left-wing politics dictate. Not to even mention what China's reaction would have been. I think it's important to emphasize, we already had diversity, the current state of things is a different matter that, if I might add, looks ridiculous as hell from Europe.
friend_and_foe 3y ago
What moral message? Really, what's the moral message now? 15 years ago the moral message was maybe "gay people have a right to love each other too." In the late 60s it was "black people are just people like everyone else, treating them like second class citizens is wrong." What's the moral message now? I can't find one, all I can see is "here's more, if you're tired of it you're a bad person."
- everdrive 3y ago
  I'd argue that one of the current moral messages is a meta-message, and it does follow some specific rules: - Representation of the "correct" racial and gender groups is of primary importance. - We need to make up for historical sins by casting the "correct" racial and gender roles appropriately. For example, the man should be the supporting character, and the woman must be the leading action hero. - Because the show (or movie) itself is an act of representation, supporting the show demonstrates your support for the cause of representation. And therefore if you don't like the show, it's primarily because you do not support this "representation" goal. (and this point is also why plot and writing can take a back seat. "Representation" is the primary goal, writing and plot are often secondary.)
  - friend_and_foe 3y ago
    But its less of a moral message and more of a direct attempt at social engineering. Instead of appealing to the populace with a concept, they're attempting to present reality as they'd like it to be (for a while at least; it isn't progress if it doesn't keep changing) hoping that the fans will emulate it and enforce a contrived norm onto their peers. To me that isn't moral messaging at all, there's no moral high ground to aspire to here, there's no lesson to be learned.

Joeboy 3y ago

I just don't think there's much point in having the conversation unless people can elucidate what exactly they're complaining about. All films have "messaging".

everdrive 3y ago
I think there's some merit to that point of view, but at least in the narrow context of HN, I don't want to contribute to culture war internet arguments.
Levitz 3y ago
Which is precisely why it's impossible to point at exactly what the problem is. Yes, all films have messaging, so why did messaging change? Was it not pro-women enough? The Little Mermaid came out in 89 with great success. Not diverse enough? If there is one thing that Disney deserves flak for is for plundering tales from all around the world. Pocahontas and Mulan were also massively successful, long ago. The most recent "incidents" I recall are the new Little Mermaid being black, the seven little dwarves being of various ethnicities (With a Hispanic Snow White) and the whole deal regarding Star Wars. It gives the feeling that the messaging was deemed not enough. It's not enough to have films like Mulan or El Dorado, or Lilo & Stitch or Aladin, with a plethora of cultures and races, that which is white and male has to changed on top of that. I can't even imagine the reactions if Disney dared turn Mulan black, but The Little Mermaid is Danish, and since that country is predominantly white, it's fair game since that's what US left-wing politics dictate. Not to even mention what China's reaction would have been. I think it's important to emphasize, we already had diversity, the current state of things is a different matter that, if I might add, looks ridiculous as hell from Europe.

friend_and_foe 3y ago

What moral message? Really, what's the moral message now? 15 years ago the moral message was maybe "gay people have a right to love each other too." In the late 60s it was "black people are just people like everyone else, treating them like second class citizens is wrong." What's the moral message now? I can't find one, all I can see is "here's more, if you're tired of it you're a bad person."

everdrive 3y ago
I'd argue that one of the current moral messages is a meta-message, and it does follow some specific rules: - Representation of the "correct" racial and gender groups is of primary importance. - We need to make up for historical sins by casting the "correct" racial and gender roles appropriately. For example, the man should be the supporting character, and the woman must be the leading action hero. - Because the show (or movie) itself is an act of representation, supporting the show demonstrates your support for the cause of representation. And therefore if you don't like the show, it's primarily because you do not support this "representation" goal. (and this point is also why plot and writing can take a back seat. "Representation" is the primary goal, writing and plot are often secondary.)
- friend_and_foe 3y ago
  But its less of a moral message and more of a direct attempt at social engineering. Instead of appealing to the populace with a concept, they're attempting to present reality as they'd like it to be (for a while at least; it isn't progress if it doesn't keep changing) hoping that the fans will emulate it and enforce a contrived norm onto their peers. To me that isn't moral messaging at all, there's no moral high ground to aspire to here, there's no lesson to be learned.