4 ms·

I mean, has _any_ change in _human history_ impacted those considerably? This argument is like saying we live the same way the cavemen did...

by herval 3y ago

jodrellblank 3y ago
I'm not the original commenter, but moving from nomadic tribes to stable settlements, moving from hunter gathering to agriculture, moving from almost everyone subsistence farming to the introduction of money at all, to most people working unrelated for money and trading money for food[2], moving from multigenerational homes to nuclear families to sending kids to schools and daycares, moving from tribal lands to countries with a national identity of their own which you are supposed to have some kind of loyalty to - over and above the king/warlord you trade protection with. As well as those, the change from food and goods being scarce to abundant roughly corresponding with the industrial revolution (abundant textiles and clothes) and the early to mid 1900s (factories), labour receding from sunrise to sundown changing to a working week with days off (various, but early 1900s official 5 day week[1] and 8 hour day), changing to the more recent thing where both parents have to work to get enough income while the child is away all day, massively increased free time (particularly household chore automation - electricity, light, central heating, food mixers, washing machines, mostly early to mid 1900s). Compared to those things, the internet gets you something else to read or watch (instead of TV, newspaper, book, radio) and some other way to talk (instead of letter, telegram, postcard, telephone). Yes the organisation of things happens quicker and information comes from farther away, and can be more up to date, but you spend your time sitting in a chair watching or reading (office, home, school) like you did before, you buy things and have them delivered or go collect them (like you did before), you consult maps and directories and consumer advice and government documents (like you did before), you take and share holiday photos (like before). It's different, but it's not all that different. [1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/articles/zf22kmn https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/articles/zf22kmn (1932 in America) [2] https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN03339/SN03339.pdf https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN03... - the UK had 1.7M people working in farming in 1851, down to 182k today while the population has roughly 4x'd in the same time.
- herval 3y ago
  that's quite a restrictive view of how much the internet changed _everything_ across the planet, from culture to work
  - jodrellblank 3y ago
    Oh what a frustratingly low effort reply to my high effort comment. Come on, if you want to make the claim that the internet changed _everything_ you can back it up with some examples - especially when the claim was not "nothing changed" but "things don't feel as different" - so the examples should not be "someone far away does something differently" or "some behind the scenes organisation was more efficient", but things everyday us (HN readers) feel in day to day life. No telephone to telephone is a HUGE change. Telephone call to digital PBX over fibre to packet switched VoIP to WhatsApp feels like no change at all.
    - herval 3y ago
      True, I’m not very used to internet debates lasting longer than one or two low effort replies, so I became dismissive too. Apologies. I don’t really have hard data that proves the impact of the internet at a macro level, just anecdotal stuff. I think it’s easy to overplay the impact of past innovations bc we see the late waves - eg the telephone wasn’t really a thing that impacted most of the world for decades, and there’s entirely countries that went from no telephone at all to whatsapp directly (brazil for instance) When it comes to jobs, I think I know maybe a dozen people whose jobs/industries only exist because of the Internet - and that’s counting outside the tech bubble, mind you. I’m sure this is verifiable with labor data somehow. Not to mention the entire middle class slipping into gigs in a model that only exists because of the internet (maybe a bit too recent for most to grasp the consequences). On a personal level - quite literally everything in my life would’ve been completely different. I can’t even imagine the kind of local job I’d have at a small town, watching about stuff on the TV and hearing about tech only from a friend over radio
ketzo 3y ago
Some people claim AGI will. If you believe in the heights of “singularity” talk, we should expect some pretty fundamental changes to the basics of our lives. Not sure how much stock I put in that, though.

I mean, has _any_ change in _human history_ impacted those considerably? This argument is like saying we live the same way the cavemen did...

by herval 3y ago

I mean, has _any_ change in _human history_ impacted those considerably? This argument is like saying we live the same way the cavemen did...

jodrellblank 3y ago

I'm not the original commenter, but moving from nomadic tribes to stable settlements, moving from hunter gathering to agriculture, moving from almost everyone subsistence farming to the introduction of money at all, to most people working unrelated for money and trading money for food[2], moving from multigenerational homes to nuclear families to sending kids to schools and daycares, moving from tribal lands to countries with a national identity of their own which you are supposed to have some kind of loyalty to - over and above the king/warlord you trade protection with. As well as those, the change from food and goods being scarce to abundant roughly corresponding with the industrial revolution (abundant textiles and clothes) and the early to mid 1900s (factories), labour receding from sunrise to sundown changing to a working week with days off (various, but early 1900s official 5 day week[1] and 8 hour day), changing to the more recent thing where both parents have to work to get enough income while the child is away all day, massively increased free time (particularly household chore automation - electricity, light, central heating, food mixers, washing machines, mostly early to mid 1900s). Compared to those things, the internet gets you something else to read or watch (instead of TV, newspaper, book, radio) and some other way to talk (instead of letter, telegram, postcard, telephone). Yes the organisation of things happens quicker and information comes from farther away, and can be more up to date, but you spend your time sitting in a chair watching or reading (office, home, school) like you did before, you buy things and have them delivered or go collect them (like you did before), you consult maps and directories and consumer advice and government documents (like you did before), you take and share holiday photos (like before). It's different, but it's not all that different. [1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/articles/zf22kmn https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/articles/zf22kmn (1932 in America) [2] https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN03339/SN03339.pdf https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN03... - the UK had 1.7M people working in farming in 1851, down to 182k today while the population has roughly 4x'd in the same time.

herval 3y ago
that's quite a restrictive view of how much the internet changed _everything_ across the planet, from culture to work
- jodrellblank 3y ago
  Oh what a frustratingly low effort reply to my high effort comment. Come on, if you want to make the claim that the internet changed _everything_ you can back it up with some examples - especially when the claim was not "nothing changed" but "things don't feel as different" - so the examples should not be "someone far away does something differently" or "some behind the scenes organisation was more efficient", but things everyday us (HN readers) feel in day to day life. No telephone to telephone is a HUGE change. Telephone call to digital PBX over fibre to packet switched VoIP to WhatsApp feels like no change at all.
  - herval 3y ago
    True, I’m not very used to internet debates lasting longer than one or two low effort replies, so I became dismissive too. Apologies. I don’t really have hard data that proves the impact of the internet at a macro level, just anecdotal stuff. I think it’s easy to overplay the impact of past innovations bc we see the late waves - eg the telephone wasn’t really a thing that impacted most of the world for decades, and there’s entirely countries that went from no telephone at all to whatsapp directly (brazil for instance) When it comes to jobs, I think I know maybe a dozen people whose jobs/industries only exist because of the Internet - and that’s counting outside the tech bubble, mind you. I’m sure this is verifiable with labor data somehow. Not to mention the entire middle class slipping into gigs in a model that only exists because of the internet (maybe a bit too recent for most to grasp the consequences). On a personal level - quite literally everything in my life would’ve been completely different. I can’t even imagine the kind of local job I’d have at a small town, watching about stuff on the TV and hearing about tech only from a friend over radio

ketzo 3y ago

Some people claim AGI will. If you believe in the heights of “singularity” talk, we should expect some pretty fundamental changes to the basics of our lives. Not sure how much stock I put in that, though.