3 ms·

The thing I don't understand is why in 300K+ of human existence agriculture was independently discovered only in the last 20K years? I think it's one of those

The thing I don't understand is why in 300K+ of human existence agriculture was independently discovered only in the last 20K years? I think it's one of those things that are possible but not provable - agriculture might have exist 100K years ago. Same thing for writing - it was independently discovered "recently" - could it have been discovered many times in the last 300K years that we don't know about?

throwup238 3y ago
The most recent glacial period started 120,000 years ago and ended about 12,000 years ago. During the glacial period, much of the earth would have been covered with ice and the agriculturally habitable band around the equator was much smaller. Nomadic hunter gatherers, on the other hand, would be able to move around and follow the fauna that had adapted and survived. This is roughly around the time that humans started wearing clothing (based on body lice molecular clock studies) so hunter gatherers would be able to occupy much larger areas with a much larger diversity of food sources than any agricultural society tied to its productive land. IIRC one of our genetic bottlenecks is from this time period so humanity barely survived as it is and the glaciers would have destroyed most evidence of human habitation, especially when it's in an open field ala agriculture. The stuff that survives was generally buried in a cave of some sort and protected from the elements so even if they had discovered agriculture, evidence of that fact would not have survived. During the glacial period the sea level was also much lower than it is now, so all the settlements are now far underwater, if they existed at all.
- a_gnostic 3y ago
  During the ice ages, the sea level is lower, making more equatorial regions habitable. The sea level dropped about 200 feet (60 m) at the highest glaciation in the past 100K years.
- aksss 3y ago
  > underwater See Doggerland, for example.
AndrewKemendo 3y ago
I attempt to answer that in my paper you can read: https://kemendo.com/Myth-of-Scarcity.html https://kemendo.com/Myth-of-Scarcity.html Answer: The idea of property which leads to agriculture arises consequent with the loss of megafauna. So a massive loss of available calories requires a complete reorganization of society in effect, and as those losses spread around the globe as humans also spread around the globe. Simultaneously you have to develop compensatory mechanisms for calories hence agriculture.
- brnaftr361 3y ago
  What happens if you flip the property->agriculture assertion, instead agriculture->property. This regime makes more sense to me, especially when considering the supposed nutritional poverty that the earliest agricultural societies are said to have experienced. "I worked this land, the yield is... mine..?" leading to conflict which eventually necessitated state and thus defined property rights. And this then allowed for vertical hierarchical development as "old money" was in possession of the most fertile land. I'll read through your paper here shortly, perhaps I'll find the answer.
  - AndrewKemendo 3y ago
    Property in the form of “excludable and rival” was invented when we had to start hoarding megafauna- aka nomadic cattle herding. This preceded agriculture. I have an additional hypothesis that agriculture actually came out of having to feed livestock rather than trying to feed people directly
    - brnaftr361 3y ago
      Interesting, I suppose I overlooked the fact that they're indeed separate modalities, I suppose it's because most of my reading originates at the beginning of the historical record. It's not something I had explicitly considered, though I do recall one instance mentioned in Dawn of Everything. Do you have any reading that you'd suggest on the topic?
wolverine876 3y ago
> it's one of those things that are possible but not provable - agriculture might have exist 100K years ago. Same thing for writing - it was independently discovered "recently" - could it have been discovered many times in the last 300K years that we don't know about? It is very much provable, the same way we've proven agriculture's existence in the last 10K years (I haven't seen the number 20K?). We find evidence. Despite lots of looking, nobody has found evidence. Lots of things 'might' be true; that's exactly the issue science addresses. 'Might' is worthless; lead 'might' be transmutable into gold, disease might be caused by an imbalance of four humors that might exist, the stars might be campfires of dead ancestors. Evidence is required, and that method works out to theories that stand the test of time - things that are true, not might be true.

throwup238 3y ago

The most recent glacial period started 120,000 years ago and ended about 12,000 years ago. During the glacial period, much of the earth would have been covered with ice and the agriculturally habitable band around the equator was much smaller. Nomadic hunter gatherers, on the other hand, would be able to move around and follow the fauna that had adapted and survived. This is roughly around the time that humans started wearing clothing (based on body lice molecular clock studies) so hunter gatherers would be able to occupy much larger areas with a much larger diversity of food sources than any agricultural society tied to its productive land. IIRC one of our genetic bottlenecks is from this time period so humanity barely survived as it is and the glaciers would have destroyed most evidence of human habitation, especially when it's in an open field ala agriculture. The stuff that survives was generally buried in a cave of some sort and protected from the elements so even if they had discovered agriculture, evidence of that fact would not have survived. During the glacial period the sea level was also much lower than it is now, so all the settlements are now far underwater, if they existed at all.

a_gnostic 3y ago
During the ice ages, the sea level is lower, making more equatorial regions habitable. The sea level dropped about 200 feet (60 m) at the highest glaciation in the past 100K years.
aksss 3y ago
> underwater See Doggerland, for example.

AndrewKemendo 3y ago

I attempt to answer that in my paper you can read: https://kemendo.com/Myth-of-Scarcity.html https://kemendo.com/Myth-of-Scarcity.html Answer: The idea of property which leads to agriculture arises consequent with the loss of megafauna. So a massive loss of available calories requires a complete reorganization of society in effect, and as those losses spread around the globe as humans also spread around the globe. Simultaneously you have to develop compensatory mechanisms for calories hence agriculture.

brnaftr361 3y ago
What happens if you flip the property->agriculture assertion, instead agriculture->property. This regime makes more sense to me, especially when considering the supposed nutritional poverty that the earliest agricultural societies are said to have experienced. "I worked this land, the yield is... mine..?" leading to conflict which eventually necessitated state and thus defined property rights. And this then allowed for vertical hierarchical development as "old money" was in possession of the most fertile land. I'll read through your paper here shortly, perhaps I'll find the answer.
- AndrewKemendo 3y ago
  Property in the form of “excludable and rival” was invented when we had to start hoarding megafauna- aka nomadic cattle herding. This preceded agriculture. I have an additional hypothesis that agriculture actually came out of having to feed livestock rather than trying to feed people directly
  - brnaftr361 3y ago
    Interesting, I suppose I overlooked the fact that they're indeed separate modalities, I suppose it's because most of my reading originates at the beginning of the historical record. It's not something I had explicitly considered, though I do recall one instance mentioned in Dawn of Everything. Do you have any reading that you'd suggest on the topic?

wolverine876 3y ago

> it's one of those things that are possible but not provable - agriculture might have exist 100K years ago. Same thing for writing - it was independently discovered "recently" - could it have been discovered many times in the last 300K years that we don't know about? It is very much provable, the same way we've proven agriculture's existence in the last 10K years (I haven't seen the number 20K?). We find evidence. Despite lots of looking, nobody has found evidence. Lots of things 'might' be true; that's exactly the issue science addresses. 'Might' is worthless; lead 'might' be transmutable into gold, disease might be caused by an imbalance of four humors that might exist, the stars might be campfires of dead ancestors. Evidence is required, and that method works out to theories that stand the test of time - things that are true, not might be true.