3 ms·

Pretty much the same as against fluorine in water in the States: it’s unnatural/a globalist conspiracy/killing our traditional way of life/a plot to subdue the

Pretty much the same as against fluorine in water in the States: it’s unnatural/a globalist conspiracy/killing our traditional way of life/a plot to subdue the people for <reasons>. There is no scientifically sound reason against it.

tourmalinetaco 3y ago
There’s scientifically sound reasons for not wanting to drink fluorine, namely that the science is still out for whether it’s useful when used alongside regular topical applications. Not to mention excessive fluorine can stain or pit the teeth, and that it may even destroy nerve tissue. https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/magazine/magazine_article/fluoridated-drinking-water/ https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/magazine/magazine_article/fluor...
- kleton 3y ago
  Only the measurable decrease in IQ from municipal water fluoridation, which can seen when comparing Portland, where they do not fluoridate, to similar large cities in the PNW where they do.
- lostlogin 3y ago
  > the science is still out for whether it’s useful when used alongside regular topical applications. That’s a meaningless comparison. The whole point is that people aren’t doing topical application. A similar debate to this is the adding folate to flour or bread.
  - emmelaich 3y ago
    Don't most (all?) toothpastes contain fluoride?
- Taniwha 3y ago
  The LD50 of fluoride in drinking water is actually lower than the LD50 of water itself - drink enough fluoridated water to die from fluoride poisoning and you'll die from water poisoning first
  - adrianN 3y ago
    Things can have negative health effects without killing you, so the LD50 is not particularly helpful in this context.
Cockbrand 3y ago
Well, fluoridated water tastes really… well, special, and it almost feels like an indirect subsidy for the water filter industry. Iodine in salt is (to my taste) pretty neutral in comparison. [EDIT: as pointed out in a child comment, the taste actually comes from chlorine, not fluoride.]
- naremu 3y ago
  Isn't that taste chlorine from the sanitation process? Either way I actually do assume water filter companies lobby to keep public water as subpar an option as possible, there's certainly no incentive not to.
  - Cockbrand 3y ago
    Yes, you're right, I mixed up fluoride and chlorine. And thus my previous comment doesn't make sense any more. My apologies!
    - eichin 3y ago
      It doesn't bother me for drinking, but I've gotten in the habit of keeping an open (loosely covered would probably work too) pitcher of water in the fridge for making coffee, so it sits at least overnight before use, and dissipates some (having already served its purpose.)
  - xp84 3y ago
    Somehow I doubt “Big Filter” has the kind of money and clout they would need to pull that off. I’d accept being proven wrong, but I just doubt it in the absence of seeing proof. Most of the taste problem that’s in our water “on purpose” is chlorine and it’s not added out of spite, it’s added for sanitary reasons.
    - Cockbrand 3y ago
      Apart from me mixing up chlorine and fluoride, my comment was a bit hyperbolic - of course, there's no Big Filter industrial complex :) I haven't done a lot of research on how to clean water, but e.g. in Germany, tap water isn't chlorinated and thus has a much more neutral taste. And it's very much regulated to a high standard.
colechristensen 3y ago
There is scientific reason against it, just not matching many of the conspiracy nuts’ rhetoric. Most of Western Europe bans fluoridation. It can make your bones a little less elastic and a little more brittle, and there are a few other known or potential negative effects. There are also just better ways to prevent cavities.
- naremu 3y ago
  This seems like the sane, boring reality. People with modern dental routines probably don't benefit from the original purposes of fluoridation the same way people in the early 1900s only just getting electricity did. But people only just getting electricity in the early 1900s easily benefited more than were harmed by such things. Poor dental health gets scary quick. I guess the question becomes how low do you lower the bar for those who would willingly devoid themselves of sane things to include in their lives. How much freedom does one man have to harm his self, though he thinks as a self, costs to him are more often than not also costs incurred to society (and usually a society that'd prefer to not see people do self harmful things) At least in the US though, it seems that popular opposition to fluoridation started with cold war era conservative conspiracies (precious bodily fluids). So, you know.
palemoonale 3y ago
This from a country where tapwater unfortunately typically tastes like crap? (b/c it is chlorinated)
- pixl97 3y ago
  Unless it is significantly over chlorinated tasting like crap isn't because of the chlorine, in general the causation will be reversed here. Places that use a lot of chlorine are typically trying to kill off things that both taste bad and will try to kill you.
dllthomas 3y ago
You forgot "sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids"
- TheCleric 3y ago
  I deny them my essence.
  - jeremyjh 3y ago
    We’re still not sure what that last bit means.
- LambdaComplex 3y ago
  That's why I use ed, the standard text editor
adrian_b 3y ago
[flagged]
- kube-system 3y ago
  There is stronger evidence that public water fluoridation reduces tooth decay in children than there is evidence that it does any sort of harm. The only 'harm' linked to public water fluoridation is mild dental fluorosis, which is cosmetic. There are natural sources of water that have fluoride levels high enough to cause harm, but these are at levels of fluoride much higher than what is in treated water.
- lostlogin 3y ago
  > Unlike the case for iodine, there is no known reason for ingesting fluoride. If we ignore the whole point of it (reducing dental cavities), what do you think it is added for?
kleton 3y ago
In Deutschland, the iodized salt is nearly always iodized+fluoridated, whereas the only other option is plain salt with neither.
- adrianN 3y ago
  https://shop.rewe.de/p/bad-reichenhaller-marken-jodsalz-500g/84263 https://shop.rewe.de/p/bad-reichenhaller-marken-jodsalz-500g... Iodized salt with nothing else should be available in most supermarkets.
emmelaich 3y ago
Not to argue about dosing water, but fluoride has no value ingested and is poisonous at low doses. It's best to moderate your arguments against the anti-fluoride mob or you're too easily dismissed yourself. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3956646/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3956646/ > Public health approaches for global dental caries reduction that do not involve systemic ingestion of fluoride are urgently needed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoride_toxicity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoride_toxicity

tourmalinetaco 3y ago

There’s scientifically sound reasons for not wanting to drink fluorine, namely that the science is still out for whether it’s useful when used alongside regular topical applications. Not to mention excessive fluorine can stain or pit the teeth, and that it may even destroy nerve tissue. https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/magazine/magazine_article/fluoridated-drinking-water/ https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/magazine/magazine_article/fluor...

kleton 3y ago
Only the measurable decrease in IQ from municipal water fluoridation, which can seen when comparing Portland, where they do not fluoridate, to similar large cities in the PNW where they do.
lostlogin 3y ago
> the science is still out for whether it’s useful when used alongside regular topical applications. That’s a meaningless comparison. The whole point is that people aren’t doing topical application. A similar debate to this is the adding folate to flour or bread.
- emmelaich 3y ago
  Don't most (all?) toothpastes contain fluoride?
Taniwha 3y ago
The LD50 of fluoride in drinking water is actually lower than the LD50 of water itself - drink enough fluoridated water to die from fluoride poisoning and you'll die from water poisoning first
- adrianN 3y ago
  Things can have negative health effects without killing you, so the LD50 is not particularly helpful in this context.

Cockbrand 3y ago

Well, fluoridated water tastes really… well, special, and it almost feels like an indirect subsidy for the water filter industry. Iodine in salt is (to my taste) pretty neutral in comparison. [EDIT: as pointed out in a child comment, the taste actually comes from chlorine, not fluoride.]

naremu 3y ago
Isn't that taste chlorine from the sanitation process? Either way I actually do assume water filter companies lobby to keep public water as subpar an option as possible, there's certainly no incentive not to.
- Cockbrand 3y ago
  Yes, you're right, I mixed up fluoride and chlorine. And thus my previous comment doesn't make sense any more. My apologies!
  - eichin 3y ago
    It doesn't bother me for drinking, but I've gotten in the habit of keeping an open (loosely covered would probably work too) pitcher of water in the fridge for making coffee, so it sits at least overnight before use, and dissipates some (having already served its purpose.)
- xp84 3y ago
  Somehow I doubt “Big Filter” has the kind of money and clout they would need to pull that off. I’d accept being proven wrong, but I just doubt it in the absence of seeing proof. Most of the taste problem that’s in our water “on purpose” is chlorine and it’s not added out of spite, it’s added for sanitary reasons.
  - Cockbrand 3y ago
    Apart from me mixing up chlorine and fluoride, my comment was a bit hyperbolic - of course, there's no Big Filter industrial complex :) I haven't done a lot of research on how to clean water, but e.g. in Germany, tap water isn't chlorinated and thus has a much more neutral taste. And it's very much regulated to a high standard.

colechristensen 3y ago

There is scientific reason against it, just not matching many of the conspiracy nuts’ rhetoric. Most of Western Europe bans fluoridation. It can make your bones a little less elastic and a little more brittle, and there are a few other known or potential negative effects. There are also just better ways to prevent cavities.

naremu 3y ago
This seems like the sane, boring reality. People with modern dental routines probably don't benefit from the original purposes of fluoridation the same way people in the early 1900s only just getting electricity did. But people only just getting electricity in the early 1900s easily benefited more than were harmed by such things. Poor dental health gets scary quick. I guess the question becomes how low do you lower the bar for those who would willingly devoid themselves of sane things to include in their lives. How much freedom does one man have to harm his self, though he thinks as a self, costs to him are more often than not also costs incurred to society (and usually a society that'd prefer to not see people do self harmful things) At least in the US though, it seems that popular opposition to fluoridation started with cold war era conservative conspiracies (precious bodily fluids). So, you know.

palemoonale 3y ago

This from a country where tapwater unfortunately typically tastes like crap? (b/c it is chlorinated)

pixl97 3y ago
Unless it is significantly over chlorinated tasting like crap isn't because of the chlorine, in general the causation will be reversed here. Places that use a lot of chlorine are typically trying to kill off things that both taste bad and will try to kill you.

dllthomas 3y ago

You forgot "sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids"

TheCleric 3y ago
I deny them my essence.
- jeremyjh 3y ago
  We’re still not sure what that last bit means.
LambdaComplex 3y ago
That's why I use ed, the standard text editor

adrian_b 3y ago

[flagged]

kube-system 3y ago
There is stronger evidence that public water fluoridation reduces tooth decay in children than there is evidence that it does any sort of harm. The only 'harm' linked to public water fluoridation is mild dental fluorosis, which is cosmetic. There are natural sources of water that have fluoride levels high enough to cause harm, but these are at levels of fluoride much higher than what is in treated water.
lostlogin 3y ago
> Unlike the case for iodine, there is no known reason for ingesting fluoride. If we ignore the whole point of it (reducing dental cavities), what do you think it is added for?

kleton 3y ago

In Deutschland, the iodized salt is nearly always iodized+fluoridated, whereas the only other option is plain salt with neither.

adrianN 3y ago
https://shop.rewe.de/p/bad-reichenhaller-marken-jodsalz-500g/84263 https://shop.rewe.de/p/bad-reichenhaller-marken-jodsalz-500g... Iodized salt with nothing else should be available in most supermarkets.

emmelaich 3y ago

Not to argue about dosing water, but fluoride has no value ingested and is poisonous at low doses. It's best to moderate your arguments against the anti-fluoride mob or you're too easily dismissed yourself. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3956646/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3956646/ > Public health approaches for global dental caries reduction that do not involve systemic ingestion of fluoride are urgently needed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoride_toxicity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoride_toxicity