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When we went to Nissan's dog-and-pony show before the Leaf was released, they went on about how, by the time the 2011 Leaf battery needs replacement, that price

When we went to Nissan's dog-and-pony show before the Leaf was released, they went on about how, by the time the 2011 Leaf battery needs replacement, that prices on batteries would come down, the old batteries would be recycled to $UNDEFINED_BATTERY_STORAGE, etc. Twelve years later when I went to look at replacing the battery, the prices had barely budged, and good luck finding a shop that would actually do the job. It would seem that those battery cells make more money in a new car than in a replacement battery pack. It was incredibly disappointing.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
And people are being surprised that the same battery and software DRM lockout anti-consumer practices we see in mobile devices make their way into EVs, combined with the already existing planned obsolescence of the auto industry and their service networks, and why people who aren't rich are still holding on to ICEs with their 20+ year lifespan, as they can't afford to be early adopters on the yet unproven EV future hype train?
- mikestew 3y ago
  Oh, but you knew all along, eh? I didn't say "surprised", I said "disappointed". But I otherwise fail to see the point you're driving at.
  - zdragnar 3y ago
    Politicians around the world are pushing for mass adoption of what is basically a luxury good, not a substitute for an existing one. Some people have indeed been calling this out, but there hasn't really been long enough adoption for their point to be proven. It's less "nobody knew" and more "look, our leaders really are shills who have been gaslighting us".
    - mnkmnk 3y ago
      I think "leaders" have lost touch with reality. Actually, people in general have lost touch with reality, with instagram and tiktok influencers essentially saying you are a loser if you don't have these luxury products that "everyone" has.
      - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        >I think "leaders" have lost touch with reality. Were they ever in touch? Whenever reporters ask most leaders in my country, what the minimum and average wages are and what the ballpark prices of electricity, gas, eggs, milk, meat and bread are, they have no idea if they weren't schooled beforehand by their advisors.
    - ZeroGravitas 3y ago
      New cars are generally a luxury good. The introduction of EVs hasn't changed this. Roughly now the first generation of mainstream EVs are entering the second hand market for people who buy 3 year old cars. They're still in short supply as EV sales have grown rapidly since 3 years ago. People who would only buy older cars will need to wait even longer. Leafs and other first gen EVs are available too, and are fine if you can cope with their shorter range. I know this is very mildly complicated and that's enough for an unhinged right-wing conspiracy to be born, but I'm still amazed people have the confidence to repeat such obvious nonsense on HN as if it was a boomer Facebook group.
      - 0xedd 3y ago
        > New cars are generally a luxury good. Man, I sure hope the next Fiat Punto Grande MK <n+1> costs less than that raggedy old Porsche in my garage! Brainwashed and absolutely wrong. A new car doesn't have to be advanced. Give me a comically simple car. Weak. Mechanic. Bare minimum electronics. Whoopsie! Price is low as dirt. Electric cars have been around for A LOT longer than the popularised EVs of today. They were weak, perfect for cities. But they have all but disappeared and no one's heard of them today. But, that's not where corporations make money. And they only need to market it so people are convinced there is no alternative. Like phones! "Oh, sorry, Citizen #95810041, we simply HAVE to release 41 additional cameras in the next iteration. You were asking for hardware akin to the S1? You don't need 5TiB of memory just to read emails and communicate thought some app? Oh gee wiz golly my, no good obedient citizen, that's just impossible! No one can do that. What's that; the Pinephone is cheap as shit and just good enough? No, that's illegal. You need to subscri... I mean BUY what we spew!" foad.
      - flextheruler 3y ago
        My 2005 Prius has 350,000 miles on it with the only maintenance being a new hybrid battery pack for $1000 at each 150k. I’m guessing I’ll probably be an old man when I can buy a new EV and expect that ROI. It’s not a conspiracy theory it’s an inconvenient truth.
        ZeroGravitas 3y ago
tsss 3y ago
In newer cars the battery is a structural component, thus replacing it entails disassembling almost the entire car adding a ton of labor costs to an already extremely expensive replacement. EVs are a death sentence for the used market that all poor and middle class people rely on.
- pseudosavant 3y ago
  That has not been my experience at all. I've owned a Leaf and a Bolt that both had to have their entire battery replaced/recalled. The Leaf was one of the worst service experiences I've ever had. They made sure I'd never consider Nissan as a brand ever again. It took forever to get a battery, and I was without my car for the actual replacement for more than a week. The battery in my Bolt was a completely different experience. Once they had my replacement battery, Chevy replaced it in less than a day. Dropped off my car in the morning, done by the early afternoon. Clearly designed to be serviceably replaced. Far less involved than replacing an engine - the ICE equivalent end-of-life that also happens.
elsonrodriguez 3y ago
Used Leaf batteries are a hot commodity in off-grid circles. So that part has played out to some degree.
jonnycomputer 3y ago
When you say barely budged, I'm curious whether this is in nominal or real terms. e.g. I think a battery costing $10k in 2024 would be around $7k in 2011 dollars. So, if it was $10k in 2011 and it's still $10k, thats about $4k cheaper than it would have been had it kept pace with inflation.
- mikestew 3y ago
  Fair question; inflation-adjusted ballpark number that I pulled out of my butt because I'm not about to go look up hard numbers. But, yes, twelve years later the replacement battery was higher than, say, a few years after we bought ours (2011). Whether the price paced with inflation, I cannot say. Additionally, as another commenter points out, one might choose to go to a Nissan dealership for this replacement. Except, much like that other commenter, Nissan dealers are why we bought a Hyundai when we went to go get another electric car. Because we loved the Leaf, but Nissan dealerships still have everything you "love" about dealing with dealerships.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago

And people are being surprised that the same battery and software DRM lockout anti-consumer practices we see in mobile devices make their way into EVs, combined with the already existing planned obsolescence of the auto industry and their service networks, and why people who aren't rich are still holding on to ICEs with their 20+ year lifespan, as they can't afford to be early adopters on the yet unproven EV future hype train?

mikestew 3y ago
Oh, but you knew all along, eh? I didn't say "surprised", I said "disappointed". But I otherwise fail to see the point you're driving at.
- zdragnar 3y ago
  Politicians around the world are pushing for mass adoption of what is basically a luxury good, not a substitute for an existing one. Some people have indeed been calling this out, but there hasn't really been long enough adoption for their point to be proven. It's less "nobody knew" and more "look, our leaders really are shills who have been gaslighting us".
  - mnkmnk 3y ago
    I think "leaders" have lost touch with reality. Actually, people in general have lost touch with reality, with instagram and tiktok influencers essentially saying you are a loser if you don't have these luxury products that "everyone" has.
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      >I think "leaders" have lost touch with reality. Were they ever in touch? Whenever reporters ask most leaders in my country, what the minimum and average wages are and what the ballpark prices of electricity, gas, eggs, milk, meat and bread are, they have no idea if they weren't schooled beforehand by their advisors.
  - ZeroGravitas 3y ago
    New cars are generally a luxury good. The introduction of EVs hasn't changed this. Roughly now the first generation of mainstream EVs are entering the second hand market for people who buy 3 year old cars. They're still in short supply as EV sales have grown rapidly since 3 years ago. People who would only buy older cars will need to wait even longer. Leafs and other first gen EVs are available too, and are fine if you can cope with their shorter range. I know this is very mildly complicated and that's enough for an unhinged right-wing conspiracy to be born, but I'm still amazed people have the confidence to repeat such obvious nonsense on HN as if it was a boomer Facebook group.
    - 0xedd 3y ago
      > New cars are generally a luxury good. Man, I sure hope the next Fiat Punto Grande MK <n+1> costs less than that raggedy old Porsche in my garage! Brainwashed and absolutely wrong. A new car doesn't have to be advanced. Give me a comically simple car. Weak. Mechanic. Bare minimum electronics. Whoopsie! Price is low as dirt. Electric cars have been around for A LOT longer than the popularised EVs of today. They were weak, perfect for cities. But they have all but disappeared and no one's heard of them today. But, that's not where corporations make money. And they only need to market it so people are convinced there is no alternative. Like phones! "Oh, sorry, Citizen #95810041, we simply HAVE to release 41 additional cameras in the next iteration. You were asking for hardware akin to the S1? You don't need 5TiB of memory just to read emails and communicate thought some app? Oh gee wiz golly my, no good obedient citizen, that's just impossible! No one can do that. What's that; the Pinephone is cheap as shit and just good enough? No, that's illegal. You need to subscri... I mean BUY what we spew!" foad.
    - flextheruler 3y ago
      My 2005 Prius has 350,000 miles on it with the only maintenance being a new hybrid battery pack for $1000 at each 150k. I’m guessing I’ll probably be an old man when I can buy a new EV and expect that ROI. It’s not a conspiracy theory it’s an inconvenient truth.
      - ZeroGravitas 3y ago

tsss 3y ago

In newer cars the battery is a structural component, thus replacing it entails disassembling almost the entire car adding a ton of labor costs to an already extremely expensive replacement. EVs are a death sentence for the used market that all poor and middle class people rely on.

pseudosavant 3y ago
That has not been my experience at all. I've owned a Leaf and a Bolt that both had to have their entire battery replaced/recalled. The Leaf was one of the worst service experiences I've ever had. They made sure I'd never consider Nissan as a brand ever again. It took forever to get a battery, and I was without my car for the actual replacement for more than a week. The battery in my Bolt was a completely different experience. Once they had my replacement battery, Chevy replaced it in less than a day. Dropped off my car in the morning, done by the early afternoon. Clearly designed to be serviceably replaced. Far less involved than replacing an engine - the ICE equivalent end-of-life that also happens.

elsonrodriguez 3y ago

Used Leaf batteries are a hot commodity in off-grid circles. So that part has played out to some degree.

jonnycomputer 3y ago

When you say barely budged, I'm curious whether this is in nominal or real terms. e.g. I think a battery costing $10k in 2024 would be around $7k in 2011 dollars. So, if it was $10k in 2011 and it's still $10k, thats about $4k cheaper than it would have been had it kept pace with inflation.

mikestew 3y ago
Fair question; inflation-adjusted ballpark number that I pulled out of my butt because I'm not about to go look up hard numbers. But, yes, twelve years later the replacement battery was higher than, say, a few years after we bought ours (2011). Whether the price paced with inflation, I cannot say. Additionally, as another commenter points out, one might choose to go to a Nissan dealership for this replacement. Except, much like that other commenter, Nissan dealers are why we bought a Hyundai when we went to go get another electric car. Because we loved the Leaf, but Nissan dealerships still have everything you "love" about dealing with dealerships.