7 ms·

This is a major problem that will plague EVs during the second half of their lifecycle. They are cheaper to maintain up until they need a battery replacement, t

by aftbit 3y ago

This is a major problem that will plague EVs during the second half of their lifecycle. They are cheaper to maintain up until they need a battery replacement, then they are essentially e-waste. Will that happen before or after their bodies rust into dust?

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
If only we could invent swappable batteries.
- jlturner 3y ago
  You can swap the batteries in some cars, but it’s still something to have a professional do. For leaf info: https://github.com/dalathegreat/Nissan-LEAF-Battery-Upgrade https://github.com/dalathegreat/Nissan-LEAF-Battery-Upgrade
  - mytailorisrich 3y ago
    Nio, a Chinese EV manufacturer, allows batteries swap instead of charging. They have swapping stations where you just drive the car in and the battery is swapped through an automated process in under 5 minutes, then you drive off with a full charge. Edit: here it is https://youtu.be/1kZgG58zz8U?si=RVdtpw7uthJFZqVv https://youtu.be/1kZgG58zz8U?si=RVdtpw7uthJFZqVv
    - narag 3y ago
      Wait until that reachs F1 and it will be 5 seconds. The problem will be battery thieves.
      - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        You mean Formula E?
        narag 3y ago
        In other words, wait until E becomes 1.
- kybernetikos 3y ago
  https://insideevs.com/news/664267/nio-drivers-prefer-ev-battery-swapping-to-recharging/ https://insideevs.com/news/664267/nio-drivers-prefer-ev-batt...
  - Arnavion 3y ago
    Recent Tom Scott video about them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNZy603as5w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNZy603as5w
- magic_man 3y ago
  Nio does that. Chinese are killing it with their evs.
theshrike79 3y ago
The problem is that shops are basically replacing the whole engine because a head gasket swap is too hard for them. It’s perfectly possible to swap faulty cells in an EV battery, but it requires specific skills and tools. Most shops don’t bother. It’s easier to swap the whole battery.
- ZeroGravitas 3y ago
  Swapping the whole thing is reasonable if you get the full value of the "dud" battery. There's specific factories that buy and refurb these, only replacing specific cells and/or modules and then selling them on again as replacement parts. Even the totally mashed parts (from a crash perhaps) have some residual value as scrap. Fairly certain similar has happened when I've mailed off Xboxes for warranty repairs. I've got someone else's refurbed unit sent to me and mine then enters the refurb process before being returned to someone else.
  - theshrike79 3y ago
    As long as you can get the battery working, even with the missing cells, it's gonna be multiple tens of kilowatts of capacity. And if you can sell the client a full battery replacement for full price while still keeping the old one, you're making $$$
thebruce87m 3y ago
An NMC battery that gets 200 miles to a charge will last 1,000 cycles x 200 miles = 200,000 miles. An LFP battery will get 3x that. You’ll probably get batteries that outlast the bodies. The batteries themselves are recyclable too.
- bluGill 3y ago
  Most of the time the engine on a modern car out lasts the body. At least an snowy climates
  - thebruce87m 3y ago
    Sure, but I’m not sure how common it is to transplant an engine into another car - maybe we will do that with batteries?
    - bluGill 3y ago
      It used to be common. In the 1950s engines didn't last as long so you would do such a thing. Now when I hear of it I assume a mechanic ripped someone off. Though race cars do abuse engines enough that a swap is worth it for them.
jlturner 3y ago
I bought a used EV back in 2016 (2013 Leaf, certified preowned from dealer, just off 3 year lease), and negotiated 25% off asking price, coming in at $9k. I have had $0 in maintenance costs, the battery health meter (and approx range) is still exactly where it was when I bought it, despite tripling the miles. I drive it every day for in city driving. Meanwhile my Jeep of the same era required a new crate motor be installed after a cooling failure, and I’m pretty sure the transmission will need replacing in the next 5 years. The repair costs on this vehicle have been well over $10k. We ended up giving it to my sister in law after fixing it up, then bought a Subaru (which the assisted cruise control on is basically highway self driving, so good for long trips!). A lot of ICE cars end up as junk too. The EV is actually more promising to me BECAUSE of the battery swap. I can put a battery in my Leaf from a newer vehicle and increase range to a couple hundred miles (I’ll do this eventually, maybe in another 10 years). This increases the longevity of the vehicle (it’s a great car aside from range). Honestly, the Leaf was the best car purchase I’ve ever made (I’ve owned 7 in my life, all for > 10 years, aside from the latest car and another which was stolen). I’d highly recommend people buy used EVs (but I would do a certified preowned vehicle from the dealer again, you want to know that it doesn’t have said costly damage to the vehicle, but that’s true of ICE cars that require major work too). PS: we use the EV for city driving (easily 90% of our car use) and the ICE car to go long distances (visit relatives, camping, road trips), and only leaves the garage 2-5 times a month (but packs on the miles!).
- loloquwowndueo 3y ago
  “I can put a battery in my Leaf from a newer vehicle … and increase range to a couple hundred miles“ I think you’ll find putting a battery from a newer LEAF generation is not going to be trivial or cheap. Cars invented planned obsolescence, computers have nothing on them, so there’s likely to be non-trivial differences between batteries.
  - djaychela 3y ago
    Wrong in this case. It's a straightforward common swap on these, at most needing some brackets and an intermediary on the can bus, and stronger rear springs depending on the exact swap.
ramesh31 3y ago
>They are cheaper to maintain up until they need a battery replacement, then they are essentially e-waste. Will that happen before or after their bodies rust into dust? Modern EV lithium batteries last a very long time. Tesla numbers are showing >80% capacity remaining on a 10 year old car. Yes there will be people who want to swap out at that point to restore their range. But the reality is that the degradation is acceptable for most people and still leaves you with plenty of usable range.
- tyfon 3y ago
  Tesla actually has reasonable pricing for the battery replacement. Part of the price you pay for the car is what we in Norway called "pant", so when you replace the battery this price is subtracted since it's the price tesla buys the old battery back for. For my X it would cost $10000 to replace the battery, however after 5 years and 100.000 km it's still at 95% of the original capacity..
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
bryanlarsen 3y ago
Modern gasoline cars are remarkably well designed to have everything fall apart at once. They come with an 5 year / 100,000 mile warranty and fall apart at 15 years / 200,000 miles. This not-a-coincidence is a combination of both increasing the reliability of unreliable power train components over the decades and cost cutting in others. But an electric motor can easily last 1,000,000 miles, and we've got some battery technologies (LFP) that can also get close to that. The rest of the car could be engineered to go that far, but isn't because there has been no demand for it. But taxis, Ubers and self-driving cars do, so I wonder if we'll see cars with a 250,000 mile / 5 year warranty. What kind of premium would the market for such a car bear?
- PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
  I drive a mercedes diesel van whose engine is likely to last 1M miles. The problem is that engineering the rest of a vehicle to last even half that is incredibly challenging. Suspension systems, steering, braking, even just body panel fit over 500k miles are all subject to incredible demands. At this point, I feel that the 1M target is a bit silly. Given technological change (often but not always progress), a 20 year target seems like a sensible compromise.
  - bryanlarsen 3y ago
    Class 8 trucks regularly do > 1 million miles and Toyota taxis regularly do > 500,000 miles. It's certainly not easy, but it is possible.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
      Yeah, it is clearly possible. But trucks have the benefit of generally accumulating huge amounts of highway miles, which is substantially easier on the entire vehicle than family hauling and commuting. Those taxis are amazing, but I wonder if that's the right model given technological change over their lifetimes. Also, particularly for trucks, the economics of a vehicle used to make money look a bit different than one that is purely for transportation utility.
- 3y ago
fnordpiglet 3y ago
Tesla will happily replace the batteries in your car for around $10,000. However generally they retain 80-90% of their capacity after over 200,000 miles and 15 years of driving. Lithium ion batteries can be reconditioned and remanufactured. ICE cars have been rusting in junkyards since the outset at much fewer miles and more expensive overhauls of their major systems for generations. The ewaste battery meme stuff is just folks hanging onto the age of fire unreasonably. The age of Maxwell is upon us. N.b., Other car makers, YMMV. But it’s not intrinsic to the technology. If there are issues like this, it’s brand dependent. Caveat emptor.

by aftbit 3y ago

FirmwareBurner 3y ago

If only we could invent swappable batteries.

jlturner 3y ago
You can swap the batteries in some cars, but it’s still something to have a professional do. For leaf info: https://github.com/dalathegreat/Nissan-LEAF-Battery-Upgrade https://github.com/dalathegreat/Nissan-LEAF-Battery-Upgrade
- mytailorisrich 3y ago
  Nio, a Chinese EV manufacturer, allows batteries swap instead of charging. They have swapping stations where you just drive the car in and the battery is swapped through an automated process in under 5 minutes, then you drive off with a full charge. Edit: here it is https://youtu.be/1kZgG58zz8U?si=RVdtpw7uthJFZqVv https://youtu.be/1kZgG58zz8U?si=RVdtpw7uthJFZqVv
  - narag 3y ago
    Wait until that reachs F1 and it will be 5 seconds. The problem will be battery thieves.
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      You mean Formula E?
      - narag 3y ago
        In other words, wait until E becomes 1.
kybernetikos 3y ago
https://insideevs.com/news/664267/nio-drivers-prefer-ev-battery-swapping-to-recharging/ https://insideevs.com/news/664267/nio-drivers-prefer-ev-batt...
- Arnavion 3y ago
  Recent Tom Scott video about them: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNZy603as5w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNZy603as5w
magic_man 3y ago
Nio does that. Chinese are killing it with their evs.

theshrike79 3y ago

The problem is that shops are basically replacing the whole engine because a head gasket swap is too hard for them. It’s perfectly possible to swap faulty cells in an EV battery, but it requires specific skills and tools. Most shops don’t bother. It’s easier to swap the whole battery.

ZeroGravitas 3y ago
Swapping the whole thing is reasonable if you get the full value of the "dud" battery. There's specific factories that buy and refurb these, only replacing specific cells and/or modules and then selling them on again as replacement parts. Even the totally mashed parts (from a crash perhaps) have some residual value as scrap. Fairly certain similar has happened when I've mailed off Xboxes for warranty repairs. I've got someone else's refurbed unit sent to me and mine then enters the refurb process before being returned to someone else.
- theshrike79 3y ago
  As long as you can get the battery working, even with the missing cells, it's gonna be multiple tens of kilowatts of capacity. And if you can sell the client a full battery replacement for full price while still keeping the old one, you're making $$$

thebruce87m 3y ago

An NMC battery that gets 200 miles to a charge will last 1,000 cycles x 200 miles = 200,000 miles. An LFP battery will get 3x that. You’ll probably get batteries that outlast the bodies. The batteries themselves are recyclable too.

bluGill 3y ago
Most of the time the engine on a modern car out lasts the body. At least an snowy climates
- thebruce87m 3y ago
  Sure, but I’m not sure how common it is to transplant an engine into another car - maybe we will do that with batteries?
  - bluGill 3y ago
    It used to be common. In the 1950s engines didn't last as long so you would do such a thing. Now when I hear of it I assume a mechanic ripped someone off. Though race cars do abuse engines enough that a swap is worth it for them.

jlturner 3y ago

I bought a used EV back in 2016 (2013 Leaf, certified preowned from dealer, just off 3 year lease), and negotiated 25% off asking price, coming in at $9k. I have had $0 in maintenance costs, the battery health meter (and approx range) is still exactly where it was when I bought it, despite tripling the miles. I drive it every day for in city driving. Meanwhile my Jeep of the same era required a new crate motor be installed after a cooling failure, and I’m pretty sure the transmission will need replacing in the next 5 years. The repair costs on this vehicle have been well over $10k. We ended up giving it to my sister in law after fixing it up, then bought a Subaru (which the assisted cruise control on is basically highway self driving, so good for long trips!). A lot of ICE cars end up as junk too. The EV is actually more promising to me BECAUSE of the battery swap. I can put a battery in my Leaf from a newer vehicle and increase range to a couple hundred miles (I’ll do this eventually, maybe in another 10 years). This increases the longevity of the vehicle (it’s a great car aside from range). Honestly, the Leaf was the best car purchase I’ve ever made (I’ve owned 7 in my life, all for > 10 years, aside from the latest car and another which was stolen). I’d highly recommend people buy used EVs (but I would do a certified preowned vehicle from the dealer again, you want to know that it doesn’t have said costly damage to the vehicle, but that’s true of ICE cars that require major work too). PS: we use the EV for city driving (easily 90% of our car use) and the ICE car to go long distances (visit relatives, camping, road trips), and only leaves the garage 2-5 times a month (but packs on the miles!).

loloquwowndueo 3y ago
“I can put a battery in my Leaf from a newer vehicle … and increase range to a couple hundred miles“ I think you’ll find putting a battery from a newer LEAF generation is not going to be trivial or cheap. Cars invented planned obsolescence, computers have nothing on them, so there’s likely to be non-trivial differences between batteries.
- djaychela 3y ago
  Wrong in this case. It's a straightforward common swap on these, at most needing some brackets and an intermediary on the can bus, and stronger rear springs depending on the exact swap.

ramesh31 3y ago

>They are cheaper to maintain up until they need a battery replacement, then they are essentially e-waste. Will that happen before or after their bodies rust into dust? Modern EV lithium batteries last a very long time. Tesla numbers are showing >80% capacity remaining on a 10 year old car. Yes there will be people who want to swap out at that point to restore their range. But the reality is that the degradation is acceptable for most people and still leaves you with plenty of usable range.

tyfon 3y ago
Tesla actually has reasonable pricing for the battery replacement. Part of the price you pay for the car is what we in Norway called "pant", so when you replace the battery this price is subtracted since it's the price tesla buys the old battery back for. For my X it would cost $10000 to replace the battery, however after 5 years and 100.000 km it's still at 95% of the original capacity..
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

bryanlarsen 3y ago

Modern gasoline cars are remarkably well designed to have everything fall apart at once. They come with an 5 year / 100,000 mile warranty and fall apart at 15 years / 200,000 miles. This not-a-coincidence is a combination of both increasing the reliability of unreliable power train components over the decades and cost cutting in others. But an electric motor can easily last 1,000,000 miles, and we've got some battery technologies (LFP) that can also get close to that. The rest of the car could be engineered to go that far, but isn't because there has been no demand for it. But taxis, Ubers and self-driving cars do, so I wonder if we'll see cars with a 250,000 mile / 5 year warranty. What kind of premium would the market for such a car bear?

PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
I drive a mercedes diesel van whose engine is likely to last 1M miles. The problem is that engineering the rest of a vehicle to last even half that is incredibly challenging. Suspension systems, steering, braking, even just body panel fit over 500k miles are all subject to incredible demands. At this point, I feel that the 1M target is a bit silly. Given technological change (often but not always progress), a 20 year target seems like a sensible compromise.
- bryanlarsen 3y ago
  Class 8 trucks regularly do > 1 million miles and Toyota taxis regularly do > 500,000 miles. It's certainly not easy, but it is possible.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
    Yeah, it is clearly possible. But trucks have the benefit of generally accumulating huge amounts of highway miles, which is substantially easier on the entire vehicle than family hauling and commuting. Those taxis are amazing, but I wonder if that's the right model given technological change over their lifetimes. Also, particularly for trucks, the economics of a vehicle used to make money look a bit different than one that is purely for transportation utility.
3y ago

fnordpiglet 3y ago

Tesla will happily replace the batteries in your car for around $10,000. However generally they retain 80-90% of their capacity after over 200,000 miles and 15 years of driving. Lithium ion batteries can be reconditioned and remanufactured. ICE cars have been rusting in junkyards since the outset at much fewer miles and more expensive overhauls of their major systems for generations. The ewaste battery meme stuff is just folks hanging onto the age of fire unreasonably. The age of Maxwell is upon us. N.b., Other car makers, YMMV. But it’s not intrinsic to the technology. If there are issues like this, it’s brand dependent. Caveat emptor.