6 ms·

TU Berlin Scientists Hack Tesla Autopilot and Discover Secret Elon-Mode

113 points by thenaturalist 3y ago

thenaturalist 3y ago
Presented live right now at: https://streaming.media.ccc.de/37c3/granville/hls https://streaming.media.ccc.de/37c3/granville/hls Will be available online via https://media.ccc.de/ https://media.ccc.de/
acheong08 3y ago
[flagged]
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - amluto 3y ago
    If he gets a slap in the forehead by the side of a truck that he drives into at 80mph, no amount of self insurance will keep him alive.
    - toomuchtodo 3y ago
      Life is about choices. Make poor choices, experience potentially poor outcomes. (130k+ miles driven on Autopilot, no stranger to system limitations)
      - netsharc 3y ago
        Well, if he sits behind the wheel of a car like he runs Twitter... maybe time to change a few things for my 2024 bets.
      - wolverine876 3y ago
        What if he hurts other people? Those considerations are also part of life.
        toomuchtodo 3y ago
        Then he hurts someone and/or himself, just like you can’t stop any other driver out there with a license to pilot thousands of pounds of vehicular manslaughter. We have, in aggregate, decided to accept this risk for the benefit of mobility.
        wolverine876 3y ago
        This seems like bizarre philosphical cover for someone recklessly injuring or killing someone else, which obviously is not accepted socially, morally, or legally.
        ericmay 3y ago
        I think you’re really over-risking Elon Musk (whom I loathe) and Autopilot and not understanding that on a day to day basis you will deal with drivers who are far, far more dangerous than Elon with Autopilot without the nudges. Don’t mistake a dislike for a rich guy seeming to get something others can’t have with actual risk assessment.
        wolverine876 3y ago
        > Don’t mistake a dislike for a rich guy Maybe you shouldn't try to read other people's minds. :)
        ericmay 3y ago
        I didn’t, I just read the comments. It is completely and utterly unremarkable that Elon Musk has the “don’t nudge” version of Autopilot. It’s not a news story. It’s not a safety hazard. It’s not worth even commenting on. But since we are here because “Elon something something” it’s important to point out that it is unremarkable and being worried or even considering that to be a safety risk is very silly. Once you realize how dangerous driving in general is and how batshit crazy many drivers are, you would also realize Elon and his car is not a story or fact that is worth discussing. Let me put it plainly: if you find yourself thinking about or concerned with Elon Musk driving a car, as soon as that thought enters your mind you should instead think about the tens of thousands who die every year in the US alone from pointless car crashes with or without driver assistant technology and stop letting yourself be distracted by actual problems and instead help find ways to get people out of their cars so we can save lives, decrease obesity, and increase wealth.
  - elric 3y ago
    Fuck anyone who thinks that wealth should enable one to willingly endanger other road users. I don't care if people want to drive dangerously (handsfree or otherwise) or if they want to test experimental features. But the minute they become a danger to other people, they can fuck right off the road. I'm sure Elon can afford to build a private road somewhere where he can do whatever he wants.
    - toomuchtodo 3y ago
      The wealth doesn’t enable it, it simply pays for the consequences. Plenty of poor and middle class people who willingly put others in harms way every day (DUIs, distracted driving, etc), they just have nothing to take or minimal wealth to confiscate for doing so. You’re mad at Elon for letting the robot take the wheel, but he can pay for the harm you think he’s causing (real or not). 26% of Floridians have no auto insurance, for example. Creditor law protects their homes and retirement accounts (without limit in most cases!) from seizure (if applicable). When they cause harm (intentionally, willingly, or otherwise), the counterparty is simply fucked. What are we going to do about those people? Same as Elon: nothing. At least FSD hasn’t killed anyone like your average human driver does every day. I don’t condone the risk appetite, but I understand it. https://www.nhtsa.gov/press-releases/traffic-crash-death-estimates-2022 https://www.nhtsa.gov/press-releases/traffic-crash-death-est... https://www.tesladeaths.com/ https://www.tesladeaths.com/
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - jacquesm 3y ago
        No, the wealth does enable it: if wealth allows you to buy yourself out of irresponsible behavior then you are much more likely to commit that behavior if you are wealthy.
        toomuchtodo 3y ago
        Whether wealth or creditor law, if you have nothing to lose, that is what is incentivized. This is a policy problem, you won’t fix the human. This policy is likely to not change in any material way (US centric). Liability limits are engrained in the US, and the lability calculus is what drives behavior and responsibility.
- renewiltord 3y ago
  LOL people are such suckers. It's not called Elon Mode in the software, my dudes. That's what people who discovered this debug mode are calling it. HN is peak gullibility.
upon_drumhead 3y ago
Previously discovered in June of 2023 https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/20/23767041/tesla-hacker-elon-mode-hands-free-full-self-driving-autopilot https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/20/23767041/tesla-hacker-elo...
- Noumenon72 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - upon_drumhead 3y ago
    > Green called it “Elon Mode” because the name in the software suggested it was meant for “executive testing.” https://electrek.co/2023/08/30/tesla-autopilots-elon-mode-draws-attention-from-regulators/ https://electrek.co/2023/08/30/tesla-autopilots-elon-mode-dr...
    - gruez 3y ago
      So it's a nothingaburger? 1. the "elon mode" name came from some random person, not from tesla itself 2. it requires root access to enable. At which point you can also conceivably patch the software to remove the check entirely. In other words "if you have full control of the software, you can change the software so it doesn't nag you. also we're calling this elon mode".
    - Natsu 3y ago
      It's interesting that they don't share what the name in the software of this is, but GP's point appears to be that "Elon mode" is editorializing that and this seems supported by the fact that they're not giving you the opportunity to form one's own opinion on this by giving out the actual name of it.
    - dfgfek 3y ago
      [flagged]
  - andrewaylett 3y ago
    I'll agree that hands on the wheel is a poor proxy for actually paying attention. On the other hand, actually paying attention is what you're required to do if you want to drive a car, so if anyone has difficulty with that then maybe they should turn "autopilot" off, rather than disable the safeties?
omegadynamics 3y ago
[flagged]
calin2k 3y ago
can be rewatched here https://streaming.media.ccc.de/37c3/relive/12144 https://streaming.media.ccc.de/37c3/relive/12144
Havoc 3y ago
Seems to contain 3 highlights: They got a PCB/component from the US. 1) Elon mode per article is handfree minus the keep your hands on wheel stuff. Article clearly says "confirming" existence, rather than claiming this is a new discovery 2) They pulled video off the component - random vid from whatever the components past life in US was I guess 3) They got some sort of insight into what sort of data is streamed back to tesla HQ. No details They appear to have pulled this off an unspecified PCB component out of a tesla using "600 EUR" worth of gear, which to me suggests Tesla stores stuff locally unencrypted. Not an issue I guess but still interesting
- spdif899 3y ago
  Elon mode was previously identified by a guy named greentheonly who has been known for his insight into Tesla software and hardware, often posting explanations of how their services work and peeling back the curtain on things like in-cabin camera computer vision etc. https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/20/23767041/tesla-hacker-elon-mode-hands-free-full-self-driving-autopilot https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/20/23767041/tesla-hacker-elo...
rossdavidh 3y ago
Interesting, but: 1) it's his company, so did anyone doubt that he could have it work differently if he wanted? only interesting thing would be that you can hack your own Tesla to work this way, but it's not like this would be very common. 2) the stored data is interesting, but probably not as alarming as what your smartphone company has available I'm not saying it's not interesting, I'm just saying it's not as interesting as lots of other stuff about both Tesla and lots of other tech companies, that we already knew.
- Quarrel 3y ago
  > it's his company, so did anyone doubt that he could have it work differently if he wanted? I think it is more, he's a narcissist, so of course it is named after Elon. I can't imagine anyone doubted they'd tested a mode that was closer to full-auto than they'd released.
  - mewpmewp2 3y ago
    In software it's not really called "Elon". Whoever discovered/published decided to call it like that.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  > it's his company It's the shareholders' company, and there are many other stakeholders besides them.
- londons_explore 3y ago
  I suspect there are easier ways to trick the driver monitoring. For example, fake the steering and interior camera inputs.
chmod775 3y ago
> TU Berlin Scientists Hack Tesla Autopilot and Discover Secret Elon-Mode They merely confirmed it exists as they went about other things. This wasn't the bulk of their work at all. Terrible headline and article. Better to watch the original talk: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38785553 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38785553
- majewsky 3y ago
  The final recording is now available at https://media.ccc.de/v/37c3-12144-back_in_the_driver_s_seat_recovering_critical_data_from_tesla_autopilot_using_voltage_glitching https://media.ccc.de/v/37c3-12144-back_in_the_driver_s_seat_...
laidoffamazon 3y ago
Doesn’t surprise me, I had an ex-autopilot coworker who said he used to invite engineers to his house on the weekend to deploy and fix nightly versions on his own car.
sebazzz 3y ago
How would one even protect against voltage glitching? It is out of spec for the processor, so all bets are off.

113 points by thenaturalist 3y ago

Presented live right now at: https://streaming.media.ccc.de/37c3/granville/hls https://streaming.media.ccc.de/37c3/granville/hls Will be available online via https://media.ccc.de/ https://media.ccc.de/

acheong08 3y ago

[flagged]

toomuchtodo 3y ago
[flagged]
- amluto 3y ago
  If he gets a slap in the forehead by the side of a truck that he drives into at 80mph, no amount of self insurance will keep him alive.
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    Life is about choices. Make poor choices, experience potentially poor outcomes. (130k+ miles driven on Autopilot, no stranger to system limitations)
    - netsharc 3y ago
      Well, if he sits behind the wheel of a car like he runs Twitter... maybe time to change a few things for my 2024 bets.
    - wolverine876 3y ago
      What if he hurts other people? Those considerations are also part of life.
      - toomuchtodo 3y ago
        Then he hurts someone and/or himself, just like you can’t stop any other driver out there with a license to pilot thousands of pounds of vehicular manslaughter. We have, in aggregate, decided to accept this risk for the benefit of mobility.
        wolverine876 3y ago
        This seems like bizarre philosphical cover for someone recklessly injuring or killing someone else, which obviously is not accepted socially, morally, or legally.
        ericmay 3y ago
        I think you’re really over-risking Elon Musk (whom I loathe) and Autopilot and not understanding that on a day to day basis you will deal with drivers who are far, far more dangerous than Elon with Autopilot without the nudges. Don’t mistake a dislike for a rich guy seeming to get something others can’t have with actual risk assessment.
        wolverine876 3y ago
        > Don’t mistake a dislike for a rich guy Maybe you shouldn't try to read other people's minds. :)
        ericmay 3y ago
        I didn’t, I just read the comments. It is completely and utterly unremarkable that Elon Musk has the “don’t nudge” version of Autopilot. It’s not a news story. It’s not a safety hazard. It’s not worth even commenting on. But since we are here because “Elon something something” it’s important to point out that it is unremarkable and being worried or even considering that to be a safety risk is very silly. Once you realize how dangerous driving in general is and how batshit crazy many drivers are, you would also realize Elon and his car is not a story or fact that is worth discussing. Let me put it plainly: if you find yourself thinking about or concerned with Elon Musk driving a car, as soon as that thought enters your mind you should instead think about the tens of thousands who die every year in the US alone from pointless car crashes with or without driver assistant technology and stop letting yourself be distracted by actual problems and instead help find ways to get people out of their cars so we can save lives, decrease obesity, and increase wealth.
- elric 3y ago
  Fuck anyone who thinks that wealth should enable one to willingly endanger other road users. I don't care if people want to drive dangerously (handsfree or otherwise) or if they want to test experimental features. But the minute they become a danger to other people, they can fuck right off the road. I'm sure Elon can afford to build a private road somewhere where he can do whatever he wants.
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    The wealth doesn’t enable it, it simply pays for the consequences. Plenty of poor and middle class people who willingly put others in harms way every day (DUIs, distracted driving, etc), they just have nothing to take or minimal wealth to confiscate for doing so. You’re mad at Elon for letting the robot take the wheel, but he can pay for the harm you think he’s causing (real or not). 26% of Floridians have no auto insurance, for example. Creditor law protects their homes and retirement accounts (without limit in most cases!) from seizure (if applicable). When they cause harm (intentionally, willingly, or otherwise), the counterparty is simply fucked. What are we going to do about those people? Same as Elon: nothing. At least FSD hasn’t killed anyone like your average human driver does every day. I don’t condone the risk appetite, but I understand it. https://www.nhtsa.gov/press-releases/traffic-crash-death-estimates-2022 https://www.nhtsa.gov/press-releases/traffic-crash-death-est... https://www.tesladeaths.com/ https://www.tesladeaths.com/
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      No, the wealth does enable it: if wealth allows you to buy yourself out of irresponsible behavior then you are much more likely to commit that behavior if you are wealthy.
      - toomuchtodo 3y ago
        Whether wealth or creditor law, if you have nothing to lose, that is what is incentivized. This is a policy problem, you won’t fix the human. This policy is likely to not change in any material way (US centric). Liability limits are engrained in the US, and the lability calculus is what drives behavior and responsibility.
renewiltord 3y ago
LOL people are such suckers. It's not called Elon Mode in the software, my dudes. That's what people who discovered this debug mode are calling it. HN is peak gullibility.

upon_drumhead 3y ago

Previously discovered in June of 2023 https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/20/23767041/tesla-hacker-elon-mode-hands-free-full-self-driving-autopilot https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/20/23767041/tesla-hacker-elo...

Noumenon72 3y ago
[flagged]
- upon_drumhead 3y ago
  > Green called it “Elon Mode” because the name in the software suggested it was meant for “executive testing.” https://electrek.co/2023/08/30/tesla-autopilots-elon-mode-draws-attention-from-regulators/ https://electrek.co/2023/08/30/tesla-autopilots-elon-mode-dr...
  - gruez 3y ago
    So it's a nothingaburger? 1. the "elon mode" name came from some random person, not from tesla itself 2. it requires root access to enable. At which point you can also conceivably patch the software to remove the check entirely. In other words "if you have full control of the software, you can change the software so it doesn't nag you. also we're calling this elon mode".
  - Natsu 3y ago
    It's interesting that they don't share what the name in the software of this is, but GP's point appears to be that "Elon mode" is editorializing that and this seems supported by the fact that they're not giving you the opportunity to form one's own opinion on this by giving out the actual name of it.
  - dfgfek 3y ago
    [flagged]
- andrewaylett 3y ago
  I'll agree that hands on the wheel is a poor proxy for actually paying attention. On the other hand, actually paying attention is what you're required to do if you want to drive a car, so if anyone has difficulty with that then maybe they should turn "autopilot" off, rather than disable the safeties?

omegadynamics 3y ago

[flagged]

calin2k 3y ago

can be rewatched here https://streaming.media.ccc.de/37c3/relive/12144 https://streaming.media.ccc.de/37c3/relive/12144

Havoc 3y ago

Seems to contain 3 highlights: They got a PCB/component from the US. 1) Elon mode per article is handfree minus the keep your hands on wheel stuff. Article clearly says "confirming" existence, rather than claiming this is a new discovery 2) They pulled video off the component - random vid from whatever the components past life in US was I guess 3) They got some sort of insight into what sort of data is streamed back to tesla HQ. No details They appear to have pulled this off an unspecified PCB component out of a tesla using "600 EUR" worth of gear, which to me suggests Tesla stores stuff locally unencrypted. Not an issue I guess but still interesting

spdif899 3y ago
Elon mode was previously identified by a guy named greentheonly who has been known for his insight into Tesla software and hardware, often posting explanations of how their services work and peeling back the curtain on things like in-cabin camera computer vision etc. https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/20/23767041/tesla-hacker-elon-mode-hands-free-full-self-driving-autopilot https://www.theverge.com/2023/6/20/23767041/tesla-hacker-elo...

rossdavidh 3y ago

Interesting, but: 1) it's his company, so did anyone doubt that he could have it work differently if he wanted? only interesting thing would be that you can hack your own Tesla to work this way, but it's not like this would be very common. 2) the stored data is interesting, but probably not as alarming as what your smartphone company has available I'm not saying it's not interesting, I'm just saying it's not as interesting as lots of other stuff about both Tesla and lots of other tech companies, that we already knew.

Quarrel 3y ago
> it's his company, so did anyone doubt that he could have it work differently if he wanted? I think it is more, he's a narcissist, so of course it is named after Elon. I can't imagine anyone doubted they'd tested a mode that was closer to full-auto than they'd released.
- mewpmewp2 3y ago
  In software it's not really called "Elon". Whoever discovered/published decided to call it like that.
wolverine876 3y ago
> it's his company It's the shareholders' company, and there are many other stakeholders besides them.
londons_explore 3y ago
I suspect there are easier ways to trick the driver monitoring. For example, fake the steering and interior camera inputs.

chmod775 3y ago

> TU Berlin Scientists Hack Tesla Autopilot and Discover Secret Elon-Mode They merely confirmed it exists as they went about other things. This wasn't the bulk of their work at all. Terrible headline and article. Better to watch the original talk: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38785553 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38785553

majewsky 3y ago
The final recording is now available at https://media.ccc.de/v/37c3-12144-back_in_the_driver_s_seat_recovering_critical_data_from_tesla_autopilot_using_voltage_glitching https://media.ccc.de/v/37c3-12144-back_in_the_driver_s_seat_...

laidoffamazon 3y ago

Doesn’t surprise me, I had an ex-autopilot coworker who said he used to invite engineers to his house on the weekend to deploy and fix nightly versions on his own car.

sebazzz 3y ago

How would one even protect against voltage glitching? It is out of spec for the processor, so all bets are off.