3 ms·

No power plant can be built anywhere you want, can it? Point being, and I never said we do not need baseload, baseload needs are much, much lower so than they u

by hef19898 3y ago

No power plant can be built anywhere you want, can it? Point being, and I never said we do not need baseload, baseload needs are much, much lower so than they used to be. Graphite production is just one of those really energy hungry industries that found a way to be flixible regarding demand, despite using, in my example, WW1 era production plants. Now imagine what can be done with modern production technology. Other industries I have first hand knowledge of: chemical plants and paper manufacturing. When you do production planning, when you consume electricity is an important constraint. And this flexibility is being rolled out to othet sites and industries, day after day, all the time. So no, baseload needs are not as important as they used to be. Something people fail to accept, it seems... And those base load needs can be met, among other things, larger grids covering a bigger area. Also something tgat has been found as completely feasible in multiple studies. Feel free to ignore all of that so, I don't want to harm your strongly hold opinion.

troupo 3y ago
> , baseload needs are much, much lower so than they used to be. No, they aren't. You said, and I quote, "base load is nowhere near as important anymore so as it was decades ago". Decades ago we didn't have everything requiring electricity 24/7. These days even your stove continuously drives power from the grid. And where "decades ago" your production stopped or slowed down because workers would go home, now you have 24/7 automated production and logistics chains. Moreover, a lot of industries have shifted to production at night precisely because of the "civilian" electricity requirements during the day. And energy consumption has only been growing https://www.iea.org/reports/electricity-information-overview/electricity-consumption https://www.iea.org/reports/electricity-information-overview... > Now imagine what can be done with modern production technology. I don't deal in fantasies. > So no, baseload needs are not as important as they used to be. Again, this is patently and provably false. > Something people fail to accept, it seems... Some people pretend that their fantasies are fact and that their baseless statements have to be taken at face value.
- hef19898 3y ago
  You know what we had decades ago that required electricity 24/7? Steel mills, heavy industry, trains, 3-shift operated production sites and domestic appliances. You know what we have today requiring 24/7 electricity? The same list... Unless you think modern industry came into being with the internet...
  - troupo 3y ago
    Funny how it's both "the same things" and "we don't need the same baseload anymore". Meanwhile electricity consumption has grown almost 5-fold since 1980 https://www.statista.com/statistics/280704/world-power-consumption/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/280704/world-power-consu... and ~7.5-fold since the 1950s: https://ourworldindata.org/energy-production-consumption https://ourworldindata.org/energy-production-consumption
    - hef19898 3y ago
      Yes, electricity consomption increased. As did industrial output and GDP, across the world. Not sure where the surprise is in that. And I never said we don't need baseload anymore, I said, and that is confirmed by grid operators, studies and first habd knowldge, that demand, and there only big consumers matter, is getting more and more flexible. Hence, baseload is less important today than it was before. Know why industrial consumers do that? Money, they are paid for that flexibility: either by getting free electricity or getting paid (negative prices) at certain periods. Or by getting paid to not consume electricity in certain periods, same way peaker plants are paid to generate electrivity in these periods to maintain grid balance. The large cobsumers do this, as I said, since at least a decade (first time I was directly involved with it, so propably longer), and they do this on production equipment and processes almost a century old. We do need baseload, because while solar and wind are predictable, they depend on the weather to produce, and might not produce enough sometimes (almost a guarantee, your claim of zero is local so, large grids mitigate that). Not sure what's so hard to understand about any of that...
      - 3y ago

troupo 3y ago

> , baseload needs are much, much lower so than they used to be. No, they aren't. You said, and I quote, "base load is nowhere near as important anymore so as it was decades ago". Decades ago we didn't have everything requiring electricity 24/7. These days even your stove continuously drives power from the grid. And where "decades ago" your production stopped or slowed down because workers would go home, now you have 24/7 automated production and logistics chains. Moreover, a lot of industries have shifted to production at night precisely because of the "civilian" electricity requirements during the day. And energy consumption has only been growing https://www.iea.org/reports/electricity-information-overview/electricity-consumption https://www.iea.org/reports/electricity-information-overview... > Now imagine what can be done with modern production technology. I don't deal in fantasies. > So no, baseload needs are not as important as they used to be. Again, this is patently and provably false. > Something people fail to accept, it seems... Some people pretend that their fantasies are fact and that their baseless statements have to be taken at face value.

hef19898 3y ago
You know what we had decades ago that required electricity 24/7? Steel mills, heavy industry, trains, 3-shift operated production sites and domestic appliances. You know what we have today requiring 24/7 electricity? The same list... Unless you think modern industry came into being with the internet...
- troupo 3y ago
  Funny how it's both "the same things" and "we don't need the same baseload anymore". Meanwhile electricity consumption has grown almost 5-fold since 1980 https://www.statista.com/statistics/280704/world-power-consumption/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/280704/world-power-consu... and ~7.5-fold since the 1950s: https://ourworldindata.org/energy-production-consumption https://ourworldindata.org/energy-production-consumption
  - hef19898 3y ago
    Yes, electricity consomption increased. As did industrial output and GDP, across the world. Not sure where the surprise is in that. And I never said we don't need baseload anymore, I said, and that is confirmed by grid operators, studies and first habd knowldge, that demand, and there only big consumers matter, is getting more and more flexible. Hence, baseload is less important today than it was before. Know why industrial consumers do that? Money, they are paid for that flexibility: either by getting free electricity or getting paid (negative prices) at certain periods. Or by getting paid to not consume electricity in certain periods, same way peaker plants are paid to generate electrivity in these periods to maintain grid balance. The large cobsumers do this, as I said, since at least a decade (first time I was directly involved with it, so propably longer), and they do this on production equipment and processes almost a century old. We do need baseload, because while solar and wind are predictable, they depend on the weather to produce, and might not produce enough sometimes (almost a guarantee, your claim of zero is local so, large grids mitigate that). Not sure what's so hard to understand about any of that...
    - 3y ago