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You are telling me that giving them more education is punishment? No matter how you do it they get left behind, if they continue to get put in classes they aren

You are telling me that giving them more education is punishment? No matter how you do it they get left behind, if they continue to get put in classes they aren't ready for that is bad as well.

watwut 3y ago
Students who repeat the class don't tend to learn more second time around. And it is massive punishment due to social consequences with peers. Whatever did not worked first time around, does not work second time around and plus they are more demotivated.
- Jensson 3y ago
  More time absolutely helps, people do much better the second time they take a class. Teachers are a good example, they typically didn't get good grades, but after having seen the class over and over so many times they get good enough to teach it. It works, repetition leads to mastery.
  - watwut 3y ago
    It is just that practically it did not happened with elementary school students. Special help class with more repetition and teacher trained in learning issues do help. Also, the issues of failing students are not easily fixable with repetition. They have often attention issues, learning disabilities, behavioral issues, mental health issues etc. that are not helped by repetition at all.
    - master-lincoln 3y ago
      Where I am, those kids with deeper issues preventing them to learn as quick as others often have to repeat a class, fail again and then get send to special schools. In theory they should get more appropriate help there, but normally there is not more funding in these special schools and it's even harder because all of the pupils have bigger learning deficiencies. So often these kids are left behind. The only solution that gives every kid an equal opportunity would mean a massive increase of funding of schools and teachers. But even if that would happen, we currently do not have enough well educated teachers and the job is also not very popular due to high stress and low pay and new teachers take many years to be available...
- tremon 3y ago
  Let me guess, sample size of n=1? There are many reasons why students don't learn everything they can from a class and inability to grasp the material is only one one of them, yet it is the only reason that ensures they won't learn more the second time around. it is massive punishment due to social consequences with peers. Get better peers? What you're saying is that it's better for students to keep failing so as not to upset their milieu. Oftentimes, the best thing you can do for a struggling child is to take them out of the environment that's holding them down.
  - watwut 3y ago
    > Let me guess, sample size of n=1? No, that one is actually systematic result. That was original reason why they stopped doing it. It did not helped anything. Special help, additional tutors who are actually trained in behavioral and learning issues, those sometimes help. Keeping them back a grade, not much. > Get better peers? This real world we live in does not provide better peers. Peers are other kids, those are how they are. > What you're saying is that it's better for students to keep failing so as not to upset their milieu. What I am saying is that when they are hold a grade, the system is keeping them failing. They dont get better. It does not magically turns then into better performing students. They will just suck in a way similar to original suck, except that it also leads to them trying even less then before.
johnnyanmac 3y ago
with the way our education structure is setup, yes. you fall behind your peers, you are assumed to be dumb or even unteachable, if you're a rising senior, a bad grade (be it sue to external or internal factors) can rescind future prospect.s And after a certain point you have to be kicked out of a school for legal reasons so now you need to work around some other way to earn a GED. If we're talking college, you now need to either spend more time and especially money to repeat a course, or drop out and give up entirely. it can also disqualify you from scholarships and grants, so it is a direct financial consequence in two ways. Unlike the workforce, you are not given adequate opportunity in academia to fall behind, let alone fail. ----- I agree in theory that there should be no shame in needing to redo classes and reinforce your learnings, but current societal expectations in traditinal education does no support such a mindset. Another reason I wish there was more awareness and accessibilities in paths outside of grade school -> university to figure out what you enjoy and how to learn it.

You are telling me that giving them more education is punishment? No matter how you do it they get left behind, if they continue to get put in classes they aren't ready for that is bad as well.

watwut 3y ago

Students who repeat the class don't tend to learn more second time around. And it is massive punishment due to social consequences with peers. Whatever did not worked first time around, does not work second time around and plus they are more demotivated.

Jensson 3y ago
More time absolutely helps, people do much better the second time they take a class. Teachers are a good example, they typically didn't get good grades, but after having seen the class over and over so many times they get good enough to teach it. It works, repetition leads to mastery.
- watwut 3y ago
  It is just that practically it did not happened with elementary school students. Special help class with more repetition and teacher trained in learning issues do help. Also, the issues of failing students are not easily fixable with repetition. They have often attention issues, learning disabilities, behavioral issues, mental health issues etc. that are not helped by repetition at all.
  - master-lincoln 3y ago
    Where I am, those kids with deeper issues preventing them to learn as quick as others often have to repeat a class, fail again and then get send to special schools. In theory they should get more appropriate help there, but normally there is not more funding in these special schools and it's even harder because all of the pupils have bigger learning deficiencies. So often these kids are left behind. The only solution that gives every kid an equal opportunity would mean a massive increase of funding of schools and teachers. But even if that would happen, we currently do not have enough well educated teachers and the job is also not very popular due to high stress and low pay and new teachers take many years to be available...
tremon 3y ago
Let me guess, sample size of n=1? There are many reasons why students don't learn everything they can from a class and inability to grasp the material is only one one of them, yet it is the only reason that ensures they won't learn more the second time around. it is massive punishment due to social consequences with peers. Get better peers? What you're saying is that it's better for students to keep failing so as not to upset their milieu. Oftentimes, the best thing you can do for a struggling child is to take them out of the environment that's holding them down.
- watwut 3y ago
  > Let me guess, sample size of n=1? No, that one is actually systematic result. That was original reason why they stopped doing it. It did not helped anything. Special help, additional tutors who are actually trained in behavioral and learning issues, those sometimes help. Keeping them back a grade, not much. > Get better peers? This real world we live in does not provide better peers. Peers are other kids, those are how they are. > What you're saying is that it's better for students to keep failing so as not to upset their milieu. What I am saying is that when they are hold a grade, the system is keeping them failing. They dont get better. It does not magically turns then into better performing students. They will just suck in a way similar to original suck, except that it also leads to them trying even less then before.

johnnyanmac 3y ago

with the way our education structure is setup, yes. you fall behind your peers, you are assumed to be dumb or even unteachable, if you're a rising senior, a bad grade (be it sue to external or internal factors) can rescind future prospect.s And after a certain point you have to be kicked out of a school for legal reasons so now you need to work around some other way to earn a GED. If we're talking college, you now need to either spend more time and especially money to repeat a course, or drop out and give up entirely. it can also disqualify you from scholarships and grants, so it is a direct financial consequence in two ways. Unlike the workforce, you are not given adequate opportunity in academia to fall behind, let alone fail. ----- I agree in theory that there should be no shame in needing to redo classes and reinforce your learnings, but current societal expectations in traditinal education does no support such a mindset. Another reason I wish there was more awareness and accessibilities in paths outside of grade school -> university to figure out what you enjoy and how to learn it.