7 ms·

> The Amstrad CPC 646 would literally take less than a second to boot Wow.

Doctor_Fegg 3y ago
Everything was in ROM: 16k BASIC, 16k operating system, optional 16k disk operating system. The 464 (“646” is a typo) shipped with a cassette deck, not a floppy disk drive, so there was no possibility of loading the OS from volatile storage.
- masswerk 3y ago
  > so there was no possibility of loading the OS from volatile storage. There are exceptions to this rule: Sharp was known for their concept of "clean computers" (MZ series and X1), which came only with a simple monitor in ROM, while at the same time featuring just a cassette drive to load a BASIC interpreter (of which there were several flavors) from.
  - ikari_pl 3y ago
    And Amstrad PCW had boot code in the printer controller, to save on ROM prices :D, and booted from a floppy only (by default to a CP/M as well)
- sedatk 3y ago
  You could attach an external floppy drive (I believe it was called FDD-1) to CPC464 and run CP/M 2.2 on it. https://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/CP/M_2.2 https://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/CP/M_2.2
  - Doctor_Fegg 3y ago
    DDI-1. It was a package including the disk interface (with AMSDOS in ROM and CP/M 2.2 partly in ROM) plus the drive itself. The FDD-1 was an optional second drive but you had to have the DDI-1 first.
- CJefferson 3y ago
  They could have typoed '664', which was the 464 with a floppy disk drive. However there basic was still in the ROM.
  - Doctor_Fegg 3y ago
    Indeed. I still have my 664 in the loft somewhere!
    - UncleSlacky 3y ago
      They're worth quite a bit these days as they were rapidly replaced on the market by the 6128 (which is in my loft).
      - CJefferson 3y ago
        Wow, I had no idea! There might be a 664 in box in my parent's house somewhere -- although it also might have been discarded some time in the last 20 years (as I imagine happened to many of them).
  - ghusbands 3y ago
    It was a typo for 464 - you can tell by the video it links to.
082349872349872 3y ago
I once read about an OS that booted before the floppy had fully spun up, and was inspired, only to discover when I tried it myself that at computer speeds, even with the floppy seek to load a kernel from a FAT image, it's actually rather easy. (to be fair, I think media corruption was more common back then, so boot-time file system checks and other sanity checks may have been what kept mainstream boots slower?)
- flohofwoe 3y ago
  Loading speed for cassette tapes and floppy disks was measured in bits per second at the time (usually between a few hundred to a few thousand bps), that was just what the hardware could handle, even without expensive error correction ;)
  - zozbot234 3y ago
    Makes a lot of sense, too. Why would you even want to load data faster than you can read it on screen, or print it out on paper? That's just a waste for such a minor increase in overall speed.
fuzzfactor 3y ago
>literally take less than a second to boot Literally, completely wrong. More like less than a second after power-up to reach full usefulness at the command line. These type computers did not need to actually boot their OS from a "peripheral" storage device. They did not "boot" at all, they just ran the built-in OS/BASIC straight from where it was contained on ROM. This was like the C64 which had its BASIC in internal ROM too. With the early Atari's the internal ROM was more like a skeletal BIOS which ran whichever ROM cartridge you had in the game slot, whether it was a commercial game or not. And the Atari BASIC command line was only available if you had the BASIC cartridge inserted where a game would otherwise be. RAM and storage were almost all yours.
- benj111 3y ago
  Define boot. Booting doesn't require loading an os. And if we include dos as an os, I'm not even sure of the conceptual difference between booting basic and booting dos. The only major thing is device discovery and setup etc. But even the 8 bits had to start up the screen output routines, so I would still classify that as 'booting'
  - ikari_pl 3y ago
    on the Amstrad computers, and that's the context, BASIC was an interpreter on top of AMSDOS, which is a DOS, and an OS (just without any UI) indeed. It's AMSDOS that provided hardware and disk handling, while BASIC could focus on running BASIC code. I think even the graphics routines (like setting a pixel) may have been implemented in AMSDOS, but not sure - and the line between two is blurry from user perspective. While those are two ROMs by two companies, they were developed in cooperation.
    - flohofwoe 3y ago
      > I think even the graphics routines (like setting a pixel) may have been implemented in AMSDOS Since I just have the CPC Intern book lying around on my desk :) The graphics routines were not part of AMSDOS, but of the GRA ROM pack (the CPC OS was modularized into "packs" each coming with a standardized interface jump table: Kernel (KL), Machine Pack (MP), Jump/Restore (JRE), Screen Pack (SCR), Text Screen (TXT), Graphics Screen (GRA), Keyboard Manager (KM), Sound Manager (SOUND), Cassette Manager (CAS), Screen Editor (EDIT). The book doesn't tell much about the AMSDOS ROM, only that the 16 KByte ROM is split into 8 KByte for the actual AMSDOS, and the other 8 KByte are used for a part of the LOGO interpreter coming with CP/M 2.2 PS: also important to note that not all CPC models came with the AMSDOS ROM or builtin floppy drive, so the actual operating system and BASIC interpreter couldn't be built on top of AMSDOS.

Everything was in ROM: 16k BASIC, 16k operating system, optional 16k disk operating system. The 464 (“646” is a typo) shipped with a cassette deck, not a floppy disk drive, so there was no possibility of loading the OS from volatile storage.

masswerk 3y ago
> so there was no possibility of loading the OS from volatile storage. There are exceptions to this rule: Sharp was known for their concept of "clean computers" (MZ series and X1), which came only with a simple monitor in ROM, while at the same time featuring just a cassette drive to load a BASIC interpreter (of which there were several flavors) from.
- ikari_pl 3y ago
  And Amstrad PCW had boot code in the printer controller, to save on ROM prices :D, and booted from a floppy only (by default to a CP/M as well)
sedatk 3y ago
You could attach an external floppy drive (I believe it was called FDD-1) to CPC464 and run CP/M 2.2 on it. https://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/CP/M_2.2 https://www.cpcwiki.eu/index.php/CP/M_2.2
- Doctor_Fegg 3y ago
  DDI-1. It was a package including the disk interface (with AMSDOS in ROM and CP/M 2.2 partly in ROM) plus the drive itself. The FDD-1 was an optional second drive but you had to have the DDI-1 first.
CJefferson 3y ago
They could have typoed '664', which was the 464 with a floppy disk drive. However there basic was still in the ROM.
- Doctor_Fegg 3y ago
  Indeed. I still have my 664 in the loft somewhere!
  - UncleSlacky 3y ago
    They're worth quite a bit these days as they were rapidly replaced on the market by the 6128 (which is in my loft).
    - CJefferson 3y ago
      Wow, I had no idea! There might be a 664 in box in my parent's house somewhere -- although it also might have been discarded some time in the last 20 years (as I imagine happened to many of them).
- ghusbands 3y ago
  It was a typo for 464 - you can tell by the video it links to.

082349872349872 3y ago

I once read about an OS that booted before the floppy had fully spun up, and was inspired, only to discover when I tried it myself that at computer speeds, even with the floppy seek to load a kernel from a FAT image, it's actually rather easy. (to be fair, I think media corruption was more common back then, so boot-time file system checks and other sanity checks may have been what kept mainstream boots slower?)

flohofwoe 3y ago
Loading speed for cassette tapes and floppy disks was measured in bits per second at the time (usually between a few hundred to a few thousand bps), that was just what the hardware could handle, even without expensive error correction ;)
- zozbot234 3y ago
  Makes a lot of sense, too. Why would you even want to load data faster than you can read it on screen, or print it out on paper? That's just a waste for such a minor increase in overall speed.

fuzzfactor 3y ago

>literally take less than a second to boot Literally, completely wrong. More like less than a second after power-up to reach full usefulness at the command line. These type computers did not need to actually boot their OS from a "peripheral" storage device. They did not "boot" at all, they just ran the built-in OS/BASIC straight from where it was contained on ROM. This was like the C64 which had its BASIC in internal ROM too. With the early Atari's the internal ROM was more like a skeletal BIOS which ran whichever ROM cartridge you had in the game slot, whether it was a commercial game or not. And the Atari BASIC command line was only available if you had the BASIC cartridge inserted where a game would otherwise be. RAM and storage were almost all yours.

benj111 3y ago
Define boot. Booting doesn't require loading an os. And if we include dos as an os, I'm not even sure of the conceptual difference between booting basic and booting dos. The only major thing is device discovery and setup etc. But even the 8 bits had to start up the screen output routines, so I would still classify that as 'booting'
- ikari_pl 3y ago
  on the Amstrad computers, and that's the context, BASIC was an interpreter on top of AMSDOS, which is a DOS, and an OS (just without any UI) indeed. It's AMSDOS that provided hardware and disk handling, while BASIC could focus on running BASIC code. I think even the graphics routines (like setting a pixel) may have been implemented in AMSDOS, but not sure - and the line between two is blurry from user perspective. While those are two ROMs by two companies, they were developed in cooperation.
  - flohofwoe 3y ago
    > I think even the graphics routines (like setting a pixel) may have been implemented in AMSDOS Since I just have the CPC Intern book lying around on my desk :) The graphics routines were not part of AMSDOS, but of the GRA ROM pack (the CPC OS was modularized into "packs" each coming with a standardized interface jump table: Kernel (KL), Machine Pack (MP), Jump/Restore (JRE), Screen Pack (SCR), Text Screen (TXT), Graphics Screen (GRA), Keyboard Manager (KM), Sound Manager (SOUND), Cassette Manager (CAS), Screen Editor (EDIT). The book doesn't tell much about the AMSDOS ROM, only that the 16 KByte ROM is split into 8 KByte for the actual AMSDOS, and the other 8 KByte are used for a part of the LOGO interpreter coming with CP/M 2.2 PS: also important to note that not all CPC models came with the AMSDOS ROM or builtin floppy drive, so the actual operating system and BASIC interpreter couldn't be built on top of AMSDOS.