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Are you arguing in good faith ? Do you have any facts that Hamas is not doing that ? There are quite a few accounts I've read that say this. Fighting from withi

Are you arguing in good faith ? Do you have any facts that Hamas is not doing that ? There are quite a few accounts I've read that say this. Fighting from within civilian areas is a core strategy of Hamas, and yes I've read Hamas would hold people at gunpoint to stay where they are and not flee. All your second paragraph - we're actually agreeing and not arguing. It's way too difficult for Gazans to leave, that's why it's not happening in big numbers. That and Hamas violently preventing it now.

runarberg 3y ago
You are asking me to prove a negative. For obvious reasons I cannot do that. All I know—which is probably the same as you—is that there are rumors this is happening, as well as unsubstantiated claims from the Israeli military. HN is not a good platform to debate this. As for my second paragraph, I’m still countering this: > Pressure Egypt to let people flee? Have the US take in the 2 million people? These are 2 of the many ways to enable non combatants to get out of the area. This is not a solution. It is a plan which the Israeli government has been proposing since the start, first quietly among lower or retired official, then secretly via leaks, and finally from Netanyahu him self to western leaders (which were not fans). Before I reiterate my main arguments against this solution, I think we should acknowledge the reality that this isn’t logistically feasible. There is no world where evacuating 2 million people from Gaza into a foreign country is going to go smoothly, especially during the one of the most brutal war since WW2. Now back to my main argument. Obviously most Gazans want to flee the war zone. But many can’t, while more still don’t want to. With the uncertainty around the right to return this last category is gonna be pretty huge, like in the hundreds of thousands. If you think it is reasonable to offer hundreds of thousands of civilians to become civilian casualties, I’m not sure what to think of you and your morals. Thinking like that is just something I cannot understand. Finally I want to offer a third reason which is human rights under international law. What OP was proposing and you seem to be defending is ethnic cleansing which is a crime against humanity under international law (and is also one of the reason western leaders are not fans). You may believe that Hamas is so bad that it is worth denying human rights to Palestinians, and offer them as collateral casualties. But I ask you, please, understand that Palestinians are humans, worthy of human rights, including life and dignity. So, since mass evacuation is not a solution for the reasons stated above, I hope you can appreciate the reality of the situation and perhaps see that Israel simply cannot fight Hamas this way. If Israel wants to fight Hamas, they have to find another way. However bad you believe Hamas is, they are not worthy sacrificing the very values all nations agreed to after the horrors of WW2.
- weatherlite 3y ago
  > they are not worthy sacrificing the very values all nations agreed to after the horrors of WW2. I honestly don't understand what you mean. Why did Europe take so many Syrians (and later on - Afghans, and now Ukranians), was that sacrificing the very values of all nations? That's the opposite of the values you seem to be talking about. You seem to imply that Palestinians are somehow different form all other groups of people under war like Syrians, Afghans, Ukrainians etc. It seems to me like the decent thing to do - no one can force anyone to evacuate but you seem to want to prevent everyone from evacuating even if they want to, that's a bizarre stand to take if you care about Palestinians or human rights in general.
  - runarberg 3y ago
    I think you are talking about the right to asylum, which is a UN right but very lacking in implementations. I never ever so much as hinted that this right should be taken away from Palestinians. I don’t even know where in my text you could have gotten the idea that I said something like that, let alone that I wanted to prevent people from evacuating. That you would interpret my words this way, only reinforces my previous belief that you are not arguing in good faith. No I want Palestinians to be able to live in their home without risking their lives and limbs. The way to do that is with ceasefire. The USA and Israel are the only two parties to this conflict who are preventing a ceasefire. > Why did Europe take so many Syrians [etc.] Previously you hinted at a conspiracy theory regarding this. As such I’m very reluctant to debate this with you. But to clarify, the values I’m talking about is that of life and dignity. Pretty much the international deceleration of human rights, and several international agreements that followed, such as the right of the child, prevention of genocide, etc. Israel is breaking several of these in their war against Hamas. What I am saying is that they shouldn’t. Hamas is not worth breaking these agreements, both legally speaking, but much more morally speaking. What Israel has become is something very much worse than any terrorist organization can dream of.
    - weatherlite 3y ago
      > I think you are talking about the right to asylum, which is a UN right but very lacking in implementations. I never ever so much as hinted that this right should be taken away from Palestinians OK good so we actually agree, I don't see we have an argument. You're going on again and again about how Israel is bad, genocide etc it wasn't connected to anything I said at all so I'm not going to reply to that.

runarberg 3y ago

You are asking me to prove a negative. For obvious reasons I cannot do that. All I know—which is probably the same as you—is that there are rumors this is happening, as well as unsubstantiated claims from the Israeli military. HN is not a good platform to debate this. As for my second paragraph, I’m still countering this: > Pressure Egypt to let people flee? Have the US take in the 2 million people? These are 2 of the many ways to enable non combatants to get out of the area. This is not a solution. It is a plan which the Israeli government has been proposing since the start, first quietly among lower or retired official, then secretly via leaks, and finally from Netanyahu him self to western leaders (which were not fans). Before I reiterate my main arguments against this solution, I think we should acknowledge the reality that this isn’t logistically feasible. There is no world where evacuating 2 million people from Gaza into a foreign country is going to go smoothly, especially during the one of the most brutal war since WW2. Now back to my main argument. Obviously most Gazans want to flee the war zone. But many can’t, while more still don’t want to. With the uncertainty around the right to return this last category is gonna be pretty huge, like in the hundreds of thousands. If you think it is reasonable to offer hundreds of thousands of civilians to become civilian casualties, I’m not sure what to think of you and your morals. Thinking like that is just something I cannot understand. Finally I want to offer a third reason which is human rights under international law. What OP was proposing and you seem to be defending is ethnic cleansing which is a crime against humanity under international law (and is also one of the reason western leaders are not fans). You may believe that Hamas is so bad that it is worth denying human rights to Palestinians, and offer them as collateral casualties. But I ask you, please, understand that Palestinians are humans, worthy of human rights, including life and dignity. So, since mass evacuation is not a solution for the reasons stated above, I hope you can appreciate the reality of the situation and perhaps see that Israel simply cannot fight Hamas this way. If Israel wants to fight Hamas, they have to find another way. However bad you believe Hamas is, they are not worthy sacrificing the very values all nations agreed to after the horrors of WW2.

weatherlite 3y ago
> they are not worthy sacrificing the very values all nations agreed to after the horrors of WW2. I honestly don't understand what you mean. Why did Europe take so many Syrians (and later on - Afghans, and now Ukranians), was that sacrificing the very values of all nations? That's the opposite of the values you seem to be talking about. You seem to imply that Palestinians are somehow different form all other groups of people under war like Syrians, Afghans, Ukrainians etc. It seems to me like the decent thing to do - no one can force anyone to evacuate but you seem to want to prevent everyone from evacuating even if they want to, that's a bizarre stand to take if you care about Palestinians or human rights in general.
- runarberg 3y ago
  I think you are talking about the right to asylum, which is a UN right but very lacking in implementations. I never ever so much as hinted that this right should be taken away from Palestinians. I don’t even know where in my text you could have gotten the idea that I said something like that, let alone that I wanted to prevent people from evacuating. That you would interpret my words this way, only reinforces my previous belief that you are not arguing in good faith. No I want Palestinians to be able to live in their home without risking their lives and limbs. The way to do that is with ceasefire. The USA and Israel are the only two parties to this conflict who are preventing a ceasefire. > Why did Europe take so many Syrians [etc.] Previously you hinted at a conspiracy theory regarding this. As such I’m very reluctant to debate this with you. But to clarify, the values I’m talking about is that of life and dignity. Pretty much the international deceleration of human rights, and several international agreements that followed, such as the right of the child, prevention of genocide, etc. Israel is breaking several of these in their war against Hamas. What I am saying is that they shouldn’t. Hamas is not worth breaking these agreements, both legally speaking, but much more morally speaking. What Israel has become is something very much worse than any terrorist organization can dream of.
  - weatherlite 3y ago
    > I think you are talking about the right to asylum, which is a UN right but very lacking in implementations. I never ever so much as hinted that this right should be taken away from Palestinians OK good so we actually agree, I don't see we have an argument. You're going on again and again about how Israel is bad, genocide etc it wasn't connected to anything I said at all so I'm not going to reply to that.