6 ms·

It's too bad that so many OS games get abandoned. It seems like the most successful projects aren't full "games" per se -- they're more like engines, like Scum

It's too bad that so many OS games get abandoned. It seems like the most successful projects aren't full "games" per se -- they're more like engines, like ScummVM or one of the many Doom engine remakes. I guess it keeps the scope a little smaller to only do the engine, without worrying about the artwork, music, etc.

unleaded 3y ago
I wasn't really around at the time but I think around 10-15 years ago there was a lot more optimism around open source games since that's where a lot of these [abandoned] projects come from. The dream of an open-source utopia probably died out for a few reasons but one fact is that many of those open source games were shit. Imagine being a kid whose friends all have a DS and mario kart but your dad is a big FOSS advocate and only lets you play SuperTuxKart.. Another reason is direction. The idea of having many random people contribute whatever they come up with works well for a lot of boring "practical" software but probably not very well for games, except things like Nethack and CDDA where having everything including the kitchen sink is one of the main points
- luqtas 3y ago
  also the project astraying by the freedom of OSS, like Space Station 13 [0]... may some like the possibility of doing your own fork, tho, centralizing effort (even if more conflicting and laborious) into a single app may is a sensible path towards great (F)OSS. i never played the mentioned game [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5sjwqUten0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5sjwqUten0
cgarrigue 3y ago
There's the matter of scope but there's the matter of motivation too. When an opensource application like GIMP, Blender, or even Manuksript for a lesser known example, are started, it's mainly because proponents of opensource want to use such application but dislike closed source. They fill a need, so getting new people willing to participate even after the people who started the project moved to something else is possible. For an opensource game, whether a clone or not, the project is generally started because some proponents of opensource like the original game and want to share it with the community. But they are not really needed per se. That means it's more difficult to get new people joining the project, and consequently if the original team cannot keep getting motivated for many months/years, the project end up abandoned.
- smokel 3y ago
  > When an opensource application like GIMP, Blender, or even Manuksript for a lesser known example, are started, it's mainly because proponents of opensource want to use such application but dislike closed source. Just for the record, Gimp was started as a student assignment project [1], and Blender started as proprietary software [2]. [1] https://www.gimp.org/about/ancient_history.html https://www.gimp.org/about/ancient_history.html [2] https://www.blender.org/about/history/ https://www.blender.org/about/history/
haunter 3y ago
Also the most successful ones like OpenTTD are delivering a complete out of the box experience. Don’t need original files, don’t need to search for old CDs or pirating. Just download and play
- parlortricks 3y ago
  You did at one point need the original files to play OpenTTD
roenxi 3y ago
Fascinating, isn't it? There is something about storytelling in games that thrives on having a small group with creative control and seems to require a huge amount of effort. But it is weird that we don't see better open source games, because good storytellers have no problems giving their work away for free. There is an overabundance of great writing on the internet. But taking a solid plot and turning it into a game engine just doesn't take. I'll point at Return of the Obra Dinn as a nice example I played through recently. Very simple story (ship suffered a terrible fate), very simple mechanic (figure out who all the passengers were from visual clues). Individually all the ideas are so trivial it barely makes sense to talk about charging for them, and the engine isn't so amazing. But I've simply never seen an OSS game with that level of quality and storytelling. Which is actually highly weird given that I've seen both better quality storytelling and engines of similar or higher complexity made available as open source/free as a labour of love. There is something much more interesting than meets the eye going on in game development to do with the intersection of GUI complexity/difficulty of asset creation/stories.
- jerrre 3y ago
  There aren't many commercial games either like Return of the Obra Dinn
  - sitta 3y ago
    Agreed. Obra Dinn is a weird example here as there's nothing else like it.
- tetha 3y ago
  > But it is weird that we don't see better open source games, because good storytellers have no problems giving their work away for free. There is an overabundance of great writing on the internet. But taking a solid plot and turning it into a game engine just doesn't take. Mh, I'm not a professional gamedev or such, but from 1-2 personal projects, some ludum dare interactions and also looking at the OpenRA project: Content is grind, and it's both easy to underestimate how much content is in games, and how much of a grind that content creation can be. Like, if we stick with the Red Alert / Dune2+ universe. Initially after some design phase, you need to implement your mechanics, set the basics for your systems, implement the architecture how systems interact. This is very much what folk would call "interesting software development". However, once you have that: You need to implement 30 units, paint them, add the units to your engine, create their behavior. There is some creativity involved here, but these are 30 very similar paint-by-number tasks. And then there are 2-3 * 20 maps to design, playtest and balance. Or 100 pushover levels to make, or 100 lost vikings levels. For example, the last time I was looking at it, OpenRA was still looking for mappers to setup some of the last maps from the different games - and not all of those levels were engine blocked. Even look at the Return of the Obra Dinn. Look at the number of scenes you explore, the number of people you need to figure out. Even very optimistic estimations quickly run into weeks and months of similar kinded work. I would suspect being in a group of a few people all excited about this project and/or needing the money it should make would make handling this easier.

unleaded 3y ago

I wasn't really around at the time but I think around 10-15 years ago there was a lot more optimism around open source games since that's where a lot of these [abandoned] projects come from. The dream of an open-source utopia probably died out for a few reasons but one fact is that many of those open source games were shit. Imagine being a kid whose friends all have a DS and mario kart but your dad is a big FOSS advocate and only lets you play SuperTuxKart.. Another reason is direction. The idea of having many random people contribute whatever they come up with works well for a lot of boring "practical" software but probably not very well for games, except things like Nethack and CDDA where having everything including the kitchen sink is one of the main points

luqtas 3y ago
also the project astraying by the freedom of OSS, like Space Station 13 [0]... may some like the possibility of doing your own fork, tho, centralizing effort (even if more conflicting and laborious) into a single app may is a sensible path towards great (F)OSS. i never played the mentioned game [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5sjwqUten0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5sjwqUten0

cgarrigue 3y ago

There's the matter of scope but there's the matter of motivation too. When an opensource application like GIMP, Blender, or even Manuksript for a lesser known example, are started, it's mainly because proponents of opensource want to use such application but dislike closed source. They fill a need, so getting new people willing to participate even after the people who started the project moved to something else is possible. For an opensource game, whether a clone or not, the project is generally started because some proponents of opensource like the original game and want to share it with the community. But they are not really needed per se. That means it's more difficult to get new people joining the project, and consequently if the original team cannot keep getting motivated for many months/years, the project end up abandoned.

smokel 3y ago
> When an opensource application like GIMP, Blender, or even Manuksript for a lesser known example, are started, it's mainly because proponents of opensource want to use such application but dislike closed source. Just for the record, Gimp was started as a student assignment project [1], and Blender started as proprietary software [2]. [1] https://www.gimp.org/about/ancient_history.html https://www.gimp.org/about/ancient_history.html [2] https://www.blender.org/about/history/ https://www.blender.org/about/history/

haunter 3y ago

Also the most successful ones like OpenTTD are delivering a complete out of the box experience. Don’t need original files, don’t need to search for old CDs or pirating. Just download and play

parlortricks 3y ago
You did at one point need the original files to play OpenTTD

roenxi 3y ago

Fascinating, isn't it? There is something about storytelling in games that thrives on having a small group with creative control and seems to require a huge amount of effort. But it is weird that we don't see better open source games, because good storytellers have no problems giving their work away for free. There is an overabundance of great writing on the internet. But taking a solid plot and turning it into a game engine just doesn't take. I'll point at Return of the Obra Dinn as a nice example I played through recently. Very simple story (ship suffered a terrible fate), very simple mechanic (figure out who all the passengers were from visual clues). Individually all the ideas are so trivial it barely makes sense to talk about charging for them, and the engine isn't so amazing. But I've simply never seen an OSS game with that level of quality and storytelling. Which is actually highly weird given that I've seen both better quality storytelling and engines of similar or higher complexity made available as open source/free as a labour of love. There is something much more interesting than meets the eye going on in game development to do with the intersection of GUI complexity/difficulty of asset creation/stories.

jerrre 3y ago
There aren't many commercial games either like Return of the Obra Dinn
- sitta 3y ago
  Agreed. Obra Dinn is a weird example here as there's nothing else like it.
tetha 3y ago
> But it is weird that we don't see better open source games, because good storytellers have no problems giving their work away for free. There is an overabundance of great writing on the internet. But taking a solid plot and turning it into a game engine just doesn't take. Mh, I'm not a professional gamedev or such, but from 1-2 personal projects, some ludum dare interactions and also looking at the OpenRA project: Content is grind, and it's both easy to underestimate how much content is in games, and how much of a grind that content creation can be. Like, if we stick with the Red Alert / Dune2+ universe. Initially after some design phase, you need to implement your mechanics, set the basics for your systems, implement the architecture how systems interact. This is very much what folk would call "interesting software development". However, once you have that: You need to implement 30 units, paint them, add the units to your engine, create their behavior. There is some creativity involved here, but these are 30 very similar paint-by-number tasks. And then there are 2-3 * 20 maps to design, playtest and balance. Or 100 pushover levels to make, or 100 lost vikings levels. For example, the last time I was looking at it, OpenRA was still looking for mappers to setup some of the last maps from the different games - and not all of those levels were engine blocked. Even look at the Return of the Obra Dinn. Look at the number of scenes you explore, the number of people you need to figure out. Even very optimistic estimations quickly run into weeks and months of similar kinded work. I would suspect being in a group of a few people all excited about this project and/or needing the money it should make would make handling this easier.