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Indeed. And if a company wants to deal with US consumers, they need to comply with US law. That’s reasonable. And if/when some companies get referential treatme

Indeed. And if a company wants to deal with US consumers, they need to comply with US law. That’s reasonable. And if/when some companies get referential treatment, you get (justified) uproar.

smoldesu 3y ago
Apple has received preferential treatment from US lawmakers, for almost a decade now. One could argue that's why the DMA and Japanese legislation exists in the first place.
- shwouchk 3y ago
  Can you substantiate this claim? And explicitly, the OP is not a valid example, since it is the subject of debate and that would lead to circular reasoning - I don’t see the current ruling as preferential in the least.
  - smoldesu 3y ago
    It's not circular reasoning if multiple municipal states are coming around to it. It's controversial, but the demand for regulation is self-evident. Take the example how you'd like, but they're still independent markets and the legislative demands hold water. As for examples of preferential treatment, there's pretty obviously the 2013 Obama ITC intervention that overrode Samsung's complaint despite a fully substantiated prosecution (and now the Masimo case). In the Trump administration, Apple was one of the few companies operating in China offered specific tariff exemptions for their manufacturers. And then speaking generally, you have the lack of interest in regulating the progress of mobile experiences. Software is moving forward, and the technology to facilitate things like multiple app stores, payment processors and browser options have existed since the 90s. Apple and Google's objections to these features are obviously both petty, and their inability to negotiate is why we're seeing nuclear-option legislation in non-US markets.
    - robertlagrant 3y ago
      > the demand for regulation is self-evident That doesn't mean it's evidence of a general need. We have groups of people who believe all sorts of things. The things are what we should be discussing, not the fact that there are groups that believe said things.
      - smoldesu 3y ago
        Then discuss it. Right now you're just objecting to my claims, if you feel like I've ignored the general need then produce the evidence and show me. What aspects of this situation have Apple, Europe and Japan missed?
        shwouchk 3y ago
        It is usually the onus of the person making claims to substantiate them, not others to find contrary evidence. So far you have completely ignored/missed my argument and are using your premise that there is preferential treatment to prove that, there is preferential treatment. Opinions of states are not relevant here, nor were cited in any way. Apple is a closed ecosystem, be it the biggest or smallest in the world, and you don’t have to participate. My example of compliance with a certain country’s law was an analogy to this situation, and so far you have not disputed that apple is treating everyone in the same manner. It is not your god given right to participate in their ecosystem, and neither are you prevented from doing this by various backdeals that give someone else a leg up (unless you claim otherwise and are willing to substantiate that claim).
        smoldesu 3y ago
        The original point is so wrong that I didn't even consider disproving it. Apple has strategic business collaborations across news[1], film[2] and software industries[3], private entitlement APIs[4] that are only available to specific developers[5], and then obvious control/integration with their platform that boxes-out legitimate and motivated competitors like Spotify[6] and Epic Games[7]. Their relationship with law enforcement is an inconsistent[8] and[9] territorial[10] train[11] wreck[12], but they proceed unpunished[13] because they have good domestic[14] relations[15]. > It is not your god given right to participate in their ecosystem It is not Apple's god-given right to participate in a market where they violate the law. It's not illegal to be a monopoly, just to abuse your monopoly power. Happy new year [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/29/technology/new-york-times-apple-news-app.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/29/technology/new-york-times...? [2] https://appleinsider.com/articles/21/05/05/apple-scrambled-to-convince-netflix-to-keep-in-app-subscriptions https://appleinsider.com/articles/21/05/05/apple-scrambled-t... [3] https://www.macrumors.com/2019/06/04/developers-sue-apple-over-app-store-fees/ https://www.macrumors.com/2019/06/04/developers-sue-apple-ov... [4] https://www.techspot.com/news/71289-apple-granted-uber-ios-app-entitlement-allowed-record.html https://www.techspot.com/news/71289-apple-granted-uber-ios-a... [5] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/sep/02/apple-concedes-on-anticompetitive-restrictions-in-app-store https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/sep/02/apple-con... [6] https://www.theverge.com/2023/2/28/23618264/eu-antitrust-case-apple-music-streaming-spotify-updated-statement-objections https://www.theverge.com/2023/2/28/23618264/eu-antitrust-cas... [7] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-09-12/epic-games-files-notice-of-appeal-in-case-versus-apple https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-09-12/epic-game... [8] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple%E2%80%93FBI_encryption_dispute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple%E2%80%93FBI_encryption_d... [9] https://www.macrumors.com/2023/12/06/apple-governments-surveil-push-notifications/ https://www.macrumors.com/2023/12/06/apple-governments-surve... [10] https://9to5mac.com/2023/06/09/chinese-government-still-afraid-of-airdrop/ https://9to5mac.com/2023/06/09/chinese-government-still-afra... [11] https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/1/22361762/iphone-russia-startup-local-apps-yandex-mail-ru-law https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/1/22361762/iphone-russia-sta... [12] https://www.theverge.com/2019/10/7/20903613/apple-hiding-taiwan-flag-emoji-hong-kong-macau-china https://www.theverge.com/2019/10/7/20903613/apple-hiding-tai... [13] https://www.latimes.com/business/la-xpm-2013-aug-03-la-fi-tn-white-house-overrules-trade-ban-on-apple-iphones-ipads-20130803-story.html https://www.latimes.com/business/la-xpm-2013-aug-03-la-fi-tn... [14] https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-67133155 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-67133155 [15] https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-ceo-tim-cook-meets-donald-trump-five-times-2019-8?op=1 https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-ceo-tim-cook-meets-don...

Indeed. And if a company wants to deal with US consumers, they need to comply with US law. That’s reasonable. And if/when some companies get referential treatment, you get (justified) uproar.

smoldesu 3y ago

Apple has received preferential treatment from US lawmakers, for almost a decade now. One could argue that's why the DMA and Japanese legislation exists in the first place.

shwouchk 3y ago
Can you substantiate this claim? And explicitly, the OP is not a valid example, since it is the subject of debate and that would lead to circular reasoning - I don’t see the current ruling as preferential in the least.
- smoldesu 3y ago
  It's not circular reasoning if multiple municipal states are coming around to it. It's controversial, but the demand for regulation is self-evident. Take the example how you'd like, but they're still independent markets and the legislative demands hold water. As for examples of preferential treatment, there's pretty obviously the 2013 Obama ITC intervention that overrode Samsung's complaint despite a fully substantiated prosecution (and now the Masimo case). In the Trump administration, Apple was one of the few companies operating in China offered specific tariff exemptions for their manufacturers. And then speaking generally, you have the lack of interest in regulating the progress of mobile experiences. Software is moving forward, and the technology to facilitate things like multiple app stores, payment processors and browser options have existed since the 90s. Apple and Google's objections to these features are obviously both petty, and their inability to negotiate is why we're seeing nuclear-option legislation in non-US markets.
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    > the demand for regulation is self-evident That doesn't mean it's evidence of a general need. We have groups of people who believe all sorts of things. The things are what we should be discussing, not the fact that there are groups that believe said things.
    - smoldesu 3y ago
      Then discuss it. Right now you're just objecting to my claims, if you feel like I've ignored the general need then produce the evidence and show me. What aspects of this situation have Apple, Europe and Japan missed?
      - shwouchk 3y ago
        It is usually the onus of the person making claims to substantiate them, not others to find contrary evidence. So far you have completely ignored/missed my argument and are using your premise that there is preferential treatment to prove that, there is preferential treatment. Opinions of states are not relevant here, nor were cited in any way. Apple is a closed ecosystem, be it the biggest or smallest in the world, and you don’t have to participate. My example of compliance with a certain country’s law was an analogy to this situation, and so far you have not disputed that apple is treating everyone in the same manner. It is not your god given right to participate in their ecosystem, and neither are you prevented from doing this by various backdeals that give someone else a leg up (unless you claim otherwise and are willing to substantiate that claim).
        smoldesu 3y ago
        The original point is so wrong that I didn't even consider disproving it. Apple has strategic business collaborations across news[1], film[2] and software industries[3], private entitlement APIs[4] that are only available to specific developers[5], and then obvious control/integration with their platform that boxes-out legitimate and motivated competitors like Spotify[6] and Epic Games[7]. Their relationship with law enforcement is an inconsistent[8] and[9] territorial[10] train[11] wreck[12], but they proceed unpunished[13] because they have good domestic[14] relations[15]. > It is not your god given right to participate in their ecosystem It is not Apple's god-given right to participate in a market where they violate the law. It's not illegal to be a monopoly, just to abuse your monopoly power. Happy new year [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/29/technology/new-york-times-apple-news-app.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/29/technology/new-york-times...? [2] https://appleinsider.com/articles/21/05/05/apple-scrambled-to-convince-netflix-to-keep-in-app-subscriptions https://appleinsider.com/articles/21/05/05/apple-scrambled-t... [3] https://www.macrumors.com/2019/06/04/developers-sue-apple-over-app-store-fees/ https://www.macrumors.com/2019/06/04/developers-sue-apple-ov... [4] https://www.techspot.com/news/71289-apple-granted-uber-ios-app-entitlement-allowed-record.html https://www.techspot.com/news/71289-apple-granted-uber-ios-a... [5] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/sep/02/apple-concedes-on-anticompetitive-restrictions-in-app-store https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/sep/02/apple-con... [6] https://www.theverge.com/2023/2/28/23618264/eu-antitrust-case-apple-music-streaming-spotify-updated-statement-objections https://www.theverge.com/2023/2/28/23618264/eu-antitrust-cas... [7] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-09-12/epic-games-files-notice-of-appeal-in-case-versus-apple https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-09-12/epic-game... [8] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple%E2%80%93FBI_encryption_dispute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple%E2%80%93FBI_encryption_d... [9] https://www.macrumors.com/2023/12/06/apple-governments-surveil-push-notifications/ https://www.macrumors.com/2023/12/06/apple-governments-surve... [10] https://9to5mac.com/2023/06/09/chinese-government-still-afraid-of-airdrop/ https://9to5mac.com/2023/06/09/chinese-government-still-afra... [11] https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/1/22361762/iphone-russia-startup-local-apps-yandex-mail-ru-law https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/1/22361762/iphone-russia-sta... [12] https://www.theverge.com/2019/10/7/20903613/apple-hiding-taiwan-flag-emoji-hong-kong-macau-china https://www.theverge.com/2019/10/7/20903613/apple-hiding-tai... [13] https://www.latimes.com/business/la-xpm-2013-aug-03-la-fi-tn-white-house-overrules-trade-ban-on-apple-iphones-ipads-20130803-story.html https://www.latimes.com/business/la-xpm-2013-aug-03-la-fi-tn... [14] https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-67133155 https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-67133155 [15] https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-ceo-tim-cook-meets-donald-trump-five-times-2019-8?op=1 https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-ceo-tim-cook-meets-don...