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> In comparison, women from these backgrounds were much more likely to go into teaching, or a creative profession—jobs which are well respected but substantiall

> In comparison, women from these backgrounds were much more likely to go into teaching, or a creative profession—jobs which are well respected but substantially less financially rewarding. …who respects teachers or creative profession careers? Genuinely asking. Teachers are ragged on all the time (“those who can’t do, teach”) and creative professions are often mocked as well in my high paying circles.

MattGaiser 3y ago
We generally think a person is a good person if we casually encounter one in a social setting. When they want more pay or help/support, that is when people stop respecting them as much. So they are respected when that respect is free to give out.
- seneca 3y ago
  That's called "lip service".
resolutebat 3y ago
A college professor or professional artist has a lot more social clout than an IT geek or a middle manager at a bank. If your social circles go around mocking teachers, you should probably find a better social circle.
- SamoyedFurFluff 3y ago
  Are you sure? IT geeks are broadly understood to make bank, while professional artists get a lot of scoff as “so a barista?”. How much respect, genuinely, does a person who say does interior design for a living really get? In my experience, very little.
  - resolutebat 3y ago
    Social respect is not just about making bank: nobody respects crypto scammers. Among the kind of people who hire interior designers, interior designers get respect.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - baq 3y ago
    Making bank while being laughed at (for a whatever reason, true or perceived) is not exactly prestigious.
    - bequanna 3y ago
      Pride can be, and often is, expensive.
  - postsantum 3y ago
    IT geeks have 2 status points and 9 money points. Teacher has 2 money points and 7 status points. That's how it tends to work In some societies money and status are more connected than in others
  - justinclift 3y ago
    > IT geeks are broadly understood to make bank That's not a widely held belief in some countries. Try mentioning you're an IT person in (say) the UK and you'll be looked upon like a plumber. aka "nothing special" Ironically, plumbers (and other trades too) are in pretty good demand so themselves can make good $ compared to the standard office worker. ;)
    - bequanna 3y ago
      That just sounds like outdated ideas are held and perpetuated by your upper middle class.
      - resolutebat 3y ago
        That's how class works though? If you're getting paid a salary in exchange for your labor, you're by definition not upper class, even if the salary is generous. (And as previous poster notes, IT salaries in the UK are generally not great.)
        dukeyukey 3y ago
        I can't speak for general IT stuff but software in the UK is paid on-par with the non-US Western world (better in London), and significantly better than other white-collar jobs.
  - chongli 3y ago
    This is very much a class-based distinction. Upper class people do not respect you for "making bank." They don't talk about money at all and consider all talk of making money to be beneath them. They have a lot of respect for teachers because they recognize the nobility of the profession: shaping the minds of the future generation of leaders.
    - corethree 3y ago
      As an upper class person myself I can verify this is true. I respect people who take on noble professions and I disrespect other rich people for myself. But I take it a step further. What's more honorable than a teacher? The janitor that cleans our public restrooms to enable us all including the teacher! That's right, stooping to the point where you clean other people's shit is the most honorable thing someone can do when the alternative was becoming a start up billionaire. Hats off to the janitors of the world. That's why instead of having other billionaire friends as my peers normally would, all my friends are janitorial engineers! What a realistic depiction of reality I just made! I'm not lying to myself or making stuff up. I respect janitors and teachers!
      - beaned 3y ago
        Everyone knows who's made a smart decision in adulthood by choosing and succeeding in a career that allows they and their family to prosper. In my experience when you come home for Christmas and everyone's asking questions to the struggling-but-"creative" folks, it's not because truly in your heart either you or they believe they've done something more true, "right," or "better," but that you understand that inquiry is a small flattery that only minimally compensates for the hardship they've chosen, likely from lack of foresight earlier in life. These types love the attention as it makes what they do seem more important, but everyone involved seems to know that it's just a form of compensation. When you've already beaten the struggle, or sidestepped it smartly, and succeeded, too much of a focus on your career is implicitly understood to not be polite conversation since people naturally compare. People who are smart are smart enough to get this, too, and so are typically happy enough to not talk about themselves. All this is of course excepting genuine care, concern, and curiosity, but I think it does explain somewhat the balance of conversations overall.
  - MacsHeadroom 3y ago
    Income doesn't define your social class. An assistant professor is higher class than an upp quartile software engineer despite earning the same as a fast food worker. Both are higher class than an oil rig worker despite making less.
    - apantel 3y ago
      I think your social class is largely a function of what your parents’ social class is because it’s in the formative years before you even begin earning money that you absorb all of the values, mannerisms, entitlements, experiences, etc that are ‘in the water’ of your upbringing. Someone who has been born to very wealthy parents has been around a different kind of melieu their whole life. They’ve absorbed a different kind of table talk. They’ve travelled more, stayed in nicer hotels, been treated better by staff at many different establishments… all of that gets baked into their conditioning in those formative years.
    - rufus_foreman 3y ago
      I no longer believe that an assistant professor is higher class than a fast food worker.
    - seneca 3y ago
      > An assistant professor is higher class than an upp quartile software engineer That isn't even remotely true in the US, in the general case.
  - alasdair_ 3y ago
    A professional artist active in high status social circles is far higher regarded than a random FAANG engineer.
  - dotnet00 3y ago
    As a more glaring counterexample, a journalist doesn't necessarily make anywhere near as much as an IT geek, yet being a journalist automatically grants you a level of credibility and ability to whine about the nobleness of press freedoms, while saying the same as an IT geek results in you being told to just make your own platform.
    - toomuchtodo 3y ago
      TLDR status is status, status from income lesser so, depending on context. Tallest dwarf sort of thing. https://youtu.be/pQTgLXl1qXI https://youtu.be/pQTgLXl1qXI
  - rcpt 3y ago
    Outside of tech hubs nobody has any idea what programmers make. I've heard stories of staff engineers at Google being offered IT jobs at their uncle-in-laws car dealership because "it'll be a step up"
  - petre 3y ago
    Given that many IT workers need an interior design consultant to buy a decent sofa for their living room, I'd argue quite a bit. Ask yourself who is looking at, or using your work and what are their thoughts regarding your work.
    - TheLoafOfBread 3y ago
      Mattress, table, chair and PC. What I would need an interior designer for?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
seneca 3y ago
Largely the same class of over credentialed idle rich. It's a very insular group, and they really only care about each other's opinions. Values like these vary hugely group to group. For instance, journalists and academics think of themselves as very high prestige. Within their groups they are, and engineers and bankers aren't. The inverse is also true. It's part of the ongoing fragmentation of society.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
mcpackieh 3y ago
It's well respected in the sense that when you're at a dinner party and tell people that you're a school teacher everybody says "Oh how nice! that's such an important job. You must love working with the kids, right? So rewarding to be able to make a difference" Contrast when you tell somebody you're a lawyer or lobbyist, some people will be impressed but other people will get a bit uncomfortable and try to change the subject or start telling "lawyer jokes". What did the lawyer name his daughter? Sue!
- _3u10 3y ago
  The best example is soldiers vs. mercenaries. Soldiers are highly regarded by society because society tells them they did an honorable thing because society didn't have to compensate them very well, and especially didn't have to compensate them enough to not go fight for some other society that treats them better. Mercenaries on the other hand are not highly regarded because they are well compensated, and don't really care about the honor of fighting for some society that wants to pay them dirt. Status is far cheaper to confer than money, so we make sure those willing to work for status are well compensated. It is not titles that honor men, but men that honor titles.
  - mcpackieh 3y ago
    I'm not sure I buy that. I think the reputation of soldiers varies greatly with the public perception of the wars they fought. Soldiers are highly regarded when they're seen to be fighting some great evil, but at other times soldiers are considered to be fools or even among the lowest strata of society (particularly before the modern era.) WW2 veterans receive near universal praise, but in the Vietnam era there were widespread (probably heavily exaggerated if not fabricated) reports of soldiers being spat on because a whole lot of people didn't think America's military adventurism was really in defense of America. Of course those who felt that the war was necessary in the fight against communism to defend the American way of life had a more positive view of the same soldiers. In more recent wars with all volunteer soldiers I think the reputation of soldiers is just as polarized although usually the negative side doesn't go further than cool sniffs and sneers; the spitting was probably all apocryphal in the first place. Certainly you won't see me going around thanking Iraq vets for their service; they signed up for a stupid war and I'm not going to thank them for making that mistake. I won't look down on a soldier who got drafted, but those soldiers who signed up for the travel, job experience, college education, etc are essentially mercenaries anyway.
wolverine876 3y ago
> in my high paying circles. Every circle tends to mock people outside it - 'How could these other people not see that our path is the Way? Everyone I know agrees! These other people must be deficient, or else they surely would do what I do.'
maerF0x0 3y ago
I've also heard "you handle 30 unruly children, daily? You're a saint." Maybe just in my sphere though. IIRC teachers were included in the "heroes" group of people who kept things going during covid, no?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

MattGaiser 3y ago

We generally think a person is a good person if we casually encounter one in a social setting. When they want more pay or help/support, that is when people stop respecting them as much. So they are respected when that respect is free to give out.

seneca 3y ago
That's called "lip service".

resolutebat 3y ago

A college professor or professional artist has a lot more social clout than an IT geek or a middle manager at a bank. If your social circles go around mocking teachers, you should probably find a better social circle.

SamoyedFurFluff 3y ago
Are you sure? IT geeks are broadly understood to make bank, while professional artists get a lot of scoff as “so a barista?”. How much respect, genuinely, does a person who say does interior design for a living really get? In my experience, very little.
- resolutebat 3y ago
  Social respect is not just about making bank: nobody respects crypto scammers. Among the kind of people who hire interior designers, interior designers get respect.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- baq 3y ago
  Making bank while being laughed at (for a whatever reason, true or perceived) is not exactly prestigious.
  - bequanna 3y ago
    Pride can be, and often is, expensive.
- postsantum 3y ago
  IT geeks have 2 status points and 9 money points. Teacher has 2 money points and 7 status points. That's how it tends to work In some societies money and status are more connected than in others
- justinclift 3y ago
  > IT geeks are broadly understood to make bank That's not a widely held belief in some countries. Try mentioning you're an IT person in (say) the UK and you'll be looked upon like a plumber. aka "nothing special" Ironically, plumbers (and other trades too) are in pretty good demand so themselves can make good $ compared to the standard office worker. ;)
  - bequanna 3y ago
    That just sounds like outdated ideas are held and perpetuated by your upper middle class.
    - resolutebat 3y ago
      That's how class works though? If you're getting paid a salary in exchange for your labor, you're by definition not upper class, even if the salary is generous. (And as previous poster notes, IT salaries in the UK are generally not great.)
      - dukeyukey 3y ago
        I can't speak for general IT stuff but software in the UK is paid on-par with the non-US Western world (better in London), and significantly better than other white-collar jobs.
- chongli 3y ago
  This is very much a class-based distinction. Upper class people do not respect you for "making bank." They don't talk about money at all and consider all talk of making money to be beneath them. They have a lot of respect for teachers because they recognize the nobility of the profession: shaping the minds of the future generation of leaders.
  - corethree 3y ago
    As an upper class person myself I can verify this is true. I respect people who take on noble professions and I disrespect other rich people for myself. But I take it a step further. What's more honorable than a teacher? The janitor that cleans our public restrooms to enable us all including the teacher! That's right, stooping to the point where you clean other people's shit is the most honorable thing someone can do when the alternative was becoming a start up billionaire. Hats off to the janitors of the world. That's why instead of having other billionaire friends as my peers normally would, all my friends are janitorial engineers! What a realistic depiction of reality I just made! I'm not lying to myself or making stuff up. I respect janitors and teachers!
    - beaned 3y ago
      Everyone knows who's made a smart decision in adulthood by choosing and succeeding in a career that allows they and their family to prosper. In my experience when you come home for Christmas and everyone's asking questions to the struggling-but-"creative" folks, it's not because truly in your heart either you or they believe they've done something more true, "right," or "better," but that you understand that inquiry is a small flattery that only minimally compensates for the hardship they've chosen, likely from lack of foresight earlier in life. These types love the attention as it makes what they do seem more important, but everyone involved seems to know that it's just a form of compensation. When you've already beaten the struggle, or sidestepped it smartly, and succeeded, too much of a focus on your career is implicitly understood to not be polite conversation since people naturally compare. People who are smart are smart enough to get this, too, and so are typically happy enough to not talk about themselves. All this is of course excepting genuine care, concern, and curiosity, but I think it does explain somewhat the balance of conversations overall.
- MacsHeadroom 3y ago
  Income doesn't define your social class. An assistant professor is higher class than an upp quartile software engineer despite earning the same as a fast food worker. Both are higher class than an oil rig worker despite making less.
  - apantel 3y ago
    I think your social class is largely a function of what your parents’ social class is because it’s in the formative years before you even begin earning money that you absorb all of the values, mannerisms, entitlements, experiences, etc that are ‘in the water’ of your upbringing. Someone who has been born to very wealthy parents has been around a different kind of melieu their whole life. They’ve absorbed a different kind of table talk. They’ve travelled more, stayed in nicer hotels, been treated better by staff at many different establishments… all of that gets baked into their conditioning in those formative years.
  - rufus_foreman 3y ago
    I no longer believe that an assistant professor is higher class than a fast food worker.
  - seneca 3y ago
    > An assistant professor is higher class than an upp quartile software engineer That isn't even remotely true in the US, in the general case.
- alasdair_ 3y ago
  A professional artist active in high status social circles is far higher regarded than a random FAANG engineer.
- dotnet00 3y ago
  As a more glaring counterexample, a journalist doesn't necessarily make anywhere near as much as an IT geek, yet being a journalist automatically grants you a level of credibility and ability to whine about the nobleness of press freedoms, while saying the same as an IT geek results in you being told to just make your own platform.
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    TLDR status is status, status from income lesser so, depending on context. Tallest dwarf sort of thing. https://youtu.be/pQTgLXl1qXI https://youtu.be/pQTgLXl1qXI
- rcpt 3y ago
  Outside of tech hubs nobody has any idea what programmers make. I've heard stories of staff engineers at Google being offered IT jobs at their uncle-in-laws car dealership because "it'll be a step up"
- petre 3y ago
  Given that many IT workers need an interior design consultant to buy a decent sofa for their living room, I'd argue quite a bit. Ask yourself who is looking at, or using your work and what are their thoughts regarding your work.
  - TheLoafOfBread 3y ago
    Mattress, table, chair and PC. What I would need an interior designer for?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

seneca 3y ago

Largely the same class of over credentialed idle rich. It's a very insular group, and they really only care about each other's opinions. Values like these vary hugely group to group. For instance, journalists and academics think of themselves as very high prestige. Within their groups they are, and engineers and bankers aren't. The inverse is also true. It's part of the ongoing fragmentation of society.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

mcpackieh 3y ago

It's well respected in the sense that when you're at a dinner party and tell people that you're a school teacher everybody says "Oh how nice! that's such an important job. You must love working with the kids, right? So rewarding to be able to make a difference" Contrast when you tell somebody you're a lawyer or lobbyist, some people will be impressed but other people will get a bit uncomfortable and try to change the subject or start telling "lawyer jokes". What did the lawyer name his daughter? Sue!

_3u10 3y ago
The best example is soldiers vs. mercenaries. Soldiers are highly regarded by society because society tells them they did an honorable thing because society didn't have to compensate them very well, and especially didn't have to compensate them enough to not go fight for some other society that treats them better. Mercenaries on the other hand are not highly regarded because they are well compensated, and don't really care about the honor of fighting for some society that wants to pay them dirt. Status is far cheaper to confer than money, so we make sure those willing to work for status are well compensated. It is not titles that honor men, but men that honor titles.
- mcpackieh 3y ago
  I'm not sure I buy that. I think the reputation of soldiers varies greatly with the public perception of the wars they fought. Soldiers are highly regarded when they're seen to be fighting some great evil, but at other times soldiers are considered to be fools or even among the lowest strata of society (particularly before the modern era.) WW2 veterans receive near universal praise, but in the Vietnam era there were widespread (probably heavily exaggerated if not fabricated) reports of soldiers being spat on because a whole lot of people didn't think America's military adventurism was really in defense of America. Of course those who felt that the war was necessary in the fight against communism to defend the American way of life had a more positive view of the same soldiers. In more recent wars with all volunteer soldiers I think the reputation of soldiers is just as polarized although usually the negative side doesn't go further than cool sniffs and sneers; the spitting was probably all apocryphal in the first place. Certainly you won't see me going around thanking Iraq vets for their service; they signed up for a stupid war and I'm not going to thank them for making that mistake. I won't look down on a soldier who got drafted, but those soldiers who signed up for the travel, job experience, college education, etc are essentially mercenaries anyway.

wolverine876 3y ago

> in my high paying circles. Every circle tends to mock people outside it - 'How could these other people not see that our path is the Way? Everyone I know agrees! These other people must be deficient, or else they surely would do what I do.'

maerF0x0 3y ago

I've also heard "you handle 30 unruly children, daily? You're a saint." Maybe just in my sphere though. IIRC teachers were included in the "heroes" group of people who kept things going during covid, no?

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]