5 ms·

Framing it as "rural" vs "urban" sets up a dichotomy, which human minds frequently simplify as a 50/50 split. But only 13% of Colorado residents live in rural a

Framing it as "rural" vs "urban" sets up a dichotomy, which human minds frequently simplify as a 50/50 split. But only 13% of Colorado residents live in rural areas. It would be more accurate to frame it as 7 people who want to enjoy a healthy ecosystem vs one rancher who wants to use national/state lands for farming.

ramesh31 3y ago
>Framing it as "rural" vs "urban" sets up a dichotomy, which human minds frequently simplify as a 50/50 split. But only 13% of Colorado residents live in rural areas. The US is not governed by simple majorities of the overall population. We have things like the house of reps for a reason. Land matters. If the 75% of Americans who live in urban areas were able to completely dictate terms to the other 25%, the union would have (and almost did) dissolve long ago.
- arwineap 3y ago
  If land matters, and as stated in another thread these ranchers are running the cattle on public lands, not their own, why do the ranchers even get a say?
- woodruffw 3y ago
  The Civil War was not a rural-urban war. Both sides were primarily agrarian; trying to glean modern urban-rural culture war talking points from a war principally about slavery is not going to be productive. (It’s also worth noting that we have the House of Representatives for the exact opposite reason than you’ve stated. I think you meant the Senate, which is meant to provide an aristocratic and/or rural “check” on the urban hoi polloi.)
- thsksbd 3y ago
  The pro-wolf side won by 50.4% of the vote. So a tie. But the folks who voted for it won't have to live with the consequences of their vote.
  - constantly 3y ago
    Given the consequences of the reintroduction of wolves to the ecosystem, I think literally everyone will be living with the consequences to some extent. Unless by “the consequences” you’re specifically referring to wolves attacking the livestock of billionaire (in many cases) “ranchers,” then maybe not because I’m assuming those billionaires ranching on public land aren’t voting against their pecuniary interests (as billionaires do not seem to do) and thus are not in the 50.4%.
    - pookha 3y ago
      If you want to fight climate change you want to not release packs of wolves into regenerative farms: https://www.uvm.edu/news/cals/using-regenerative-agriculture-combat-climate-change https://www.uvm.edu/news/cals/using-regenerative-agriculture... And many of these ranches are losing money for years (sometimes a decade) before they can get out of the red and see the benefits of regenerative farming systems...The more I look at this wolf situation the more depressed I get.
      - 8note 3y ago
        You would want wolves nearby though, so that the farm doesn't get picked clean by dear and elk
      - constantly 3y ago
        Your link is from Vermont, not Colorado. I don’t think anyone is advocating for the release of wolves into Vermont. I did a search of regenerative agriculture in Colorado and can only find a single farm that has tried it. Given that it seems tenuous to suggest that wolves will destroy regenerative agriculture in Colorado? Regenerative Ag seems to be focused on agriculture, as the name implies. The people upset about wolves are ranchers who stand to have their livestock attacked by wolves. I am not seeing the connection between wolves and the destruction of regenerative agriculture.
        pookha 3y ago
- Wytwwww 3y ago
  > Land matters But they don't own it. The majority of it is owned by the urban population. Why are you claiming that rural ranchers are supposed to have a stronger claim to public land just because they can graze their cattle there while paying subsidized prices for it (at the cost of the people who don't own any cattle or graze them on their private land).
- unethical_ban 3y ago
  Land doesn't matter; political subdivisions do.
AS37 3y ago
Yet another great example of America's 87% telling the 13% how they should live.
- stusmall 3y ago
  The idea that reintroducing an animal is telling someone "how to live" is wild. They existed there long before us, raising livestock can still happen with them there, and ranching existed in Colorado along side wolves long before this discussion. I live in rural Colorado and raise a small hobby amount of animals (currently a bit over 40 chickens, turkeys, and ducks but the number varies through the year). I've lost plenty of animals to predators. I've had neighbors call me out to their land to shoot others. This is part of rural life with a healthy and functioning ecosystem. Predators exist. I personally abstained from the vote; I felt like this is something better handled by career biologists and not the uninformed public. But the idea that is this "America's 87% telling the 13% how they should live" its trying really hard to jam this into existing framing of how we view American culture war issues. It'll do us some good to calm down, take a breath and put the topic in proper context. Rural residents and ranchers can still maintain their lifestyle.
  - nec4b 3y ago
    >>The idea that reintroducing an animal is telling someone "how to live" is wild. When the part of the population which is completely unaffected by the proposed change outvotes the part which now has to live with that change, it is only fair to call it what it is. This has nothing to do with wolves it could be about any other issue where the same pattern occurs.
- ausbah 3y ago
  13% shouldn’t get disproportionate say in how things are run just because they live in a different place
- jccalhoun 3y ago
  Don't a lot of these ranchers use public land? It seems like the public should have a say in how the land is used.
pookha 3y ago
If you want a healthy ecosystem than you want regenerative farming: https://www.uvm.edu/news/cals/using-regenerative-agriculture-combat-climate-change https://www.uvm.edu/news/cals/using-regenerative-agriculture... What you're arguing for would essentially kill off the tools needed to store more carbon in the soil, which would benefit industrial feed-lot styled operations that pollute and push massive amounts of run-off.

ramesh31 3y ago

>Framing it as "rural" vs "urban" sets up a dichotomy, which human minds frequently simplify as a 50/50 split. But only 13% of Colorado residents live in rural areas. The US is not governed by simple majorities of the overall population. We have things like the house of reps for a reason. Land matters. If the 75% of Americans who live in urban areas were able to completely dictate terms to the other 25%, the union would have (and almost did) dissolve long ago.

arwineap 3y ago
If land matters, and as stated in another thread these ranchers are running the cattle on public lands, not their own, why do the ranchers even get a say?
woodruffw 3y ago
The Civil War was not a rural-urban war. Both sides were primarily agrarian; trying to glean modern urban-rural culture war talking points from a war principally about slavery is not going to be productive. (It’s also worth noting that we have the House of Representatives for the exact opposite reason than you’ve stated. I think you meant the Senate, which is meant to provide an aristocratic and/or rural “check” on the urban hoi polloi.)
thsksbd 3y ago
The pro-wolf side won by 50.4% of the vote. So a tie. But the folks who voted for it won't have to live with the consequences of their vote.
- constantly 3y ago
  Given the consequences of the reintroduction of wolves to the ecosystem, I think literally everyone will be living with the consequences to some extent. Unless by “the consequences” you’re specifically referring to wolves attacking the livestock of billionaire (in many cases) “ranchers,” then maybe not because I’m assuming those billionaires ranching on public land aren’t voting against their pecuniary interests (as billionaires do not seem to do) and thus are not in the 50.4%.
  - pookha 3y ago
    If you want to fight climate change you want to not release packs of wolves into regenerative farms: https://www.uvm.edu/news/cals/using-regenerative-agriculture-combat-climate-change https://www.uvm.edu/news/cals/using-regenerative-agriculture... And many of these ranches are losing money for years (sometimes a decade) before they can get out of the red and see the benefits of regenerative farming systems...The more I look at this wolf situation the more depressed I get.
    - 8note 3y ago
      You would want wolves nearby though, so that the farm doesn't get picked clean by dear and elk
    - constantly 3y ago
      Your link is from Vermont, not Colorado. I don’t think anyone is advocating for the release of wolves into Vermont. I did a search of regenerative agriculture in Colorado and can only find a single farm that has tried it. Given that it seems tenuous to suggest that wolves will destroy regenerative agriculture in Colorado? Regenerative Ag seems to be focused on agriculture, as the name implies. The people upset about wolves are ranchers who stand to have their livestock attacked by wolves. I am not seeing the connection between wolves and the destruction of regenerative agriculture.
      - pookha 3y ago
Wytwwww 3y ago
> Land matters But they don't own it. The majority of it is owned by the urban population. Why are you claiming that rural ranchers are supposed to have a stronger claim to public land just because they can graze their cattle there while paying subsidized prices for it (at the cost of the people who don't own any cattle or graze them on their private land).
unethical_ban 3y ago
Land doesn't matter; political subdivisions do.

AS37 3y ago

Yet another great example of America's 87% telling the 13% how they should live.

stusmall 3y ago
The idea that reintroducing an animal is telling someone "how to live" is wild. They existed there long before us, raising livestock can still happen with them there, and ranching existed in Colorado along side wolves long before this discussion. I live in rural Colorado and raise a small hobby amount of animals (currently a bit over 40 chickens, turkeys, and ducks but the number varies through the year). I've lost plenty of animals to predators. I've had neighbors call me out to their land to shoot others. This is part of rural life with a healthy and functioning ecosystem. Predators exist. I personally abstained from the vote; I felt like this is something better handled by career biologists and not the uninformed public. But the idea that is this "America's 87% telling the 13% how they should live" its trying really hard to jam this into existing framing of how we view American culture war issues. It'll do us some good to calm down, take a breath and put the topic in proper context. Rural residents and ranchers can still maintain their lifestyle.
- nec4b 3y ago
  >>The idea that reintroducing an animal is telling someone "how to live" is wild. When the part of the population which is completely unaffected by the proposed change outvotes the part which now has to live with that change, it is only fair to call it what it is. This has nothing to do with wolves it could be about any other issue where the same pattern occurs.
ausbah 3y ago
13% shouldn’t get disproportionate say in how things are run just because they live in a different place
jccalhoun 3y ago
Don't a lot of these ranchers use public land? It seems like the public should have a say in how the land is used.

pookha 3y ago

If you want a healthy ecosystem than you want regenerative farming: https://www.uvm.edu/news/cals/using-regenerative-agriculture-combat-climate-change https://www.uvm.edu/news/cals/using-regenerative-agriculture... What you're arguing for would essentially kill off the tools needed to store more carbon in the soil, which would benefit industrial feed-lot styled operations that pollute and push massive amounts of run-off.