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There are other kinds of abundance than money but we are much too focused on that single value for wealth to truly account for our gifts. We destroy a lot of in

There are other kinds of abundance than money but we are much too focused on that single value for wealth to truly account for our gifts. We destroy a lot of information that could make us happy by reducing it to currency. It's depressing when I create something I'm proud of and when I show it to others it in their perception it is part of an economy. That is in my opinion the true poverty trap.

drekipus 3y ago
Have you had any experience with poverty / getting others out of poverty? in which gives you experience to say "yes, this is the true poverty trap!" I know you're being poetic, but poverty is a very real thing. There comes a point where you need to worry about food on the table before worrying about self-actualization and "value-of-itself" for what creative thing you've done.
- 8ytecoder 3y ago
  I know the general definition of poverty is around the utter basics - food and shelter - but it goes far beyond that. If you have to choose between buying a washing machine or sending your kids to a tutor. If you have to choose between buying everything as individual unit at the grocery store or cheaper-in-bulk goods from a big box store. If you have to choose between seeing the doctor now or wait and see if the issue goes away. If you have to choose between sending your kids to college or sending them off to work at 18. Decisions small and large, accumulate and create a much bigger impact than most people imagine. Each of those have an opportunity cost that could make their life a little better in the short run or a frustration in the short run that can help them towards a better life in the long run. Now imagine having to make these decisions consistently for two decades until you can see the return on it - like say your kids actually getting a better job or you becoming an entrepreneur or finding a career ...etc.
  - cartucho1 3y ago
    Related: https://www.residentcontrarian.com/p/on-the-experience-of-being-poor-ish https://www.residentcontrarian.com/p/on-the-experience-of-be...
  - drekipus 3y ago
    > If you have to choose between buying a washing machine or sending your kids to a tutor. If you have to choose between buying everything as individual unit at the grocery store or cheaper-in-bulk goods from a big box store. If you have to choose between seeing the doctor now or wait and see if the issue goes away. If you have to choose between sending your kids to college or sending them off to work at 18. I kind of think these are just middle class issues rather than poverty; but you're right that this means different things to different people. > Decisions small and large, accumulate and create a much bigger impact than most people imagine. Now imagine having to make these decisions consistently for two decades until you can see the return on it - like say your kids actually getting a better job or you becoming an entrepreneur or finding a career ...etc. I think there's an element of "little bit at first, then all at once" -- i don't think it's that these individual items that "make wealth" but rather, they would be symptoms of different states of mind regarding stress, risk, etc. I climbed out of poverty and met my wife who's "comfortably middle-class" -- she has no appetite for risk (see dr straight away, get name-brand products, college first) and i have a much larger appetite for risk (wait and see, bulk-buy products, work first). Interesting to think about, thanks for the comment; i wonder if there is/should be a study / analysis on those questions.
    - j6zauas4gz 3y ago
      > I kind of think these are just middle class issues rather than poverty; but you're right that this means different things to different people. I don't think so. I grew up squarely middle class (and the question was never "can we afford health care or collage", but a weeklong trip to Disney world set our vacation budget back several years (to the point we could not take vacations, or only took small road trips). The idea of not being able to afford basic health care or a university education should be utterly alien to the middle class.
      - chipsrafferty 3y ago
        It sounds like you grew up lower middle class. Poverty is never "do I buy a washing machine or buy something else" it's "can I afford to go to the laundromat this month".
  - MisterBastahrd 3y ago
    You have absolutely zero idea what poverty is if that's your list. You just described the difference between lower-middle and middle class. Poverty is when you have to quit your job yet again because your CCMS paperwork got screwed up and the daycare won't take your kid after school. Poverty is when you have to make visits to the food bank on a regular basis for commodities because the price of food is outstripping what EBT is offering. Poverty is when you don't have a strong attachment to any of your physical possessions even if you've worked long and hard for them because one medical problem could make it impossible for you to afford your rent, so you might as well not become too attached to anything that you'll eventually lose. Poverty is when you either keep your cash on you at all times or you pay a 3% fee to a debit card company to keep preloading a prepaid card because the banks don't think you're creditworthy enough to open an account. Poverty is when you make stupid decisions with money when you have it because there are just so many occasions when you don't. Poverty is getting CPS visits because even though you put your kid in the best clothes that you could afford, some teacher decided that today was the day she was going to white knight your child away from you. Poverty is being ashamed to be dragged through a book fair only to be the only child to not purchase anything because you don't dare ask your momma for money given how much she struggles. Poverty is when you gut through toothaches and abscesses because you don't have dental insurance and nobody does that work for free. That's poverty. What you described is an inconvenienced life.
    - erellsworth 3y ago
      This reminds me of the Monty Python Four Yorkshiremen sketch, with 4 rich dudes bragging about who had the poorest childhood[1]. One could just as easily compare your poverty with that of people in the poorest places in the world. Oh, your kids get to go to school? Our kids spend their days digging through rubbish heaps. Oh your kid was taken away by CPS? Our kid died from inhaling toxic fumes from melting down the old computer parts they found digging through the rubbish heaps. Oh, you have a debit card fee? We're don't even have ATMs, or banks. Poverty is a spectrum. Just because X is poorer than Y doesn't mean Y isn't also poor. 1: https://youtu.be/26ZDB9h7BLY?si=hyxK8ZvzLPhbQ8JI https://youtu.be/26ZDB9h7BLY?si=hyxK8ZvzLPhbQ8JI
      - 3y ago
- ganzuul 3y ago
  Yes.
Geisterde 3y ago
Prices are a heuristic people use for making choices more simply, because the number of ways an object can be defined is more numerous than the billions of atoms its made of. Further, for an item to be produced at scale and over time in the market, the profit must exceed the costs. Now, if you are able to see the value in something despite not having a firm monetization strategy, that just puts you in the same mental frame as the greatest entrepreneurs in the world. Jeff Bezos said something about how you should do what matters and find the profit later, it was written on the wall somewhere. SpaceX still might not be profitable (not sure), but the promise of 100kt of payload to LOE with recoverable lower and upper stages? Its worth the weight!
- krisoft 3y ago
  > Further, for an item to be produced at scale and over time in the market, the profit must exceed the costs. I think you meant to say revenue? > Now, if you are able to see the value in something despite not having a firm monetization strategy, that just puts you in the same mental frame as the greatest entrepreneurs in the world. It is also the same mental frame every starving artist shares too. They are able to see the value in what they do despite not having a firm monetization strategy.
  - Geisterde 3y ago
    >I think you meant to say revenue? Yes, thanks. >It is also the same mental frame every starving artist shares too. They are able to see the value in what they do despite not having a firm monetization strategy. If you read the next sentence you can see I was gently incepting that along with the idea that successful people see value before they see the price they can attach to it. To even waste your time performing the economic calculation to determine the numbers you must first be motivated by something, there is a period of time however short between the idea and its technical analysis, the value you see and its monetization. Hey, that doesnt mean monetization isnt important, but it can be forestalled for important reasons like exploring the field or gaining experience, just as much as unimportant reasons, those, being subjective to the one paying the bills.
- ganzuul 3y ago

drekipus 3y ago

Have you had any experience with poverty / getting others out of poverty? in which gives you experience to say "yes, this is the true poverty trap!" I know you're being poetic, but poverty is a very real thing. There comes a point where you need to worry about food on the table before worrying about self-actualization and "value-of-itself" for what creative thing you've done.

8ytecoder 3y ago
I know the general definition of poverty is around the utter basics - food and shelter - but it goes far beyond that. If you have to choose between buying a washing machine or sending your kids to a tutor. If you have to choose between buying everything as individual unit at the grocery store or cheaper-in-bulk goods from a big box store. If you have to choose between seeing the doctor now or wait and see if the issue goes away. If you have to choose between sending your kids to college or sending them off to work at 18. Decisions small and large, accumulate and create a much bigger impact than most people imagine. Each of those have an opportunity cost that could make their life a little better in the short run or a frustration in the short run that can help them towards a better life in the long run. Now imagine having to make these decisions consistently for two decades until you can see the return on it - like say your kids actually getting a better job or you becoming an entrepreneur or finding a career ...etc.
- cartucho1 3y ago
  Related: https://www.residentcontrarian.com/p/on-the-experience-of-being-poor-ish https://www.residentcontrarian.com/p/on-the-experience-of-be...
- drekipus 3y ago
  > If you have to choose between buying a washing machine or sending your kids to a tutor. If you have to choose between buying everything as individual unit at the grocery store or cheaper-in-bulk goods from a big box store. If you have to choose between seeing the doctor now or wait and see if the issue goes away. If you have to choose between sending your kids to college or sending them off to work at 18. I kind of think these are just middle class issues rather than poverty; but you're right that this means different things to different people. > Decisions small and large, accumulate and create a much bigger impact than most people imagine. Now imagine having to make these decisions consistently for two decades until you can see the return on it - like say your kids actually getting a better job or you becoming an entrepreneur or finding a career ...etc. I think there's an element of "little bit at first, then all at once" -- i don't think it's that these individual items that "make wealth" but rather, they would be symptoms of different states of mind regarding stress, risk, etc. I climbed out of poverty and met my wife who's "comfortably middle-class" -- she has no appetite for risk (see dr straight away, get name-brand products, college first) and i have a much larger appetite for risk (wait and see, bulk-buy products, work first). Interesting to think about, thanks for the comment; i wonder if there is/should be a study / analysis on those questions.
  - j6zauas4gz 3y ago
    > I kind of think these are just middle class issues rather than poverty; but you're right that this means different things to different people. I don't think so. I grew up squarely middle class (and the question was never "can we afford health care or collage", but a weeklong trip to Disney world set our vacation budget back several years (to the point we could not take vacations, or only took small road trips). The idea of not being able to afford basic health care or a university education should be utterly alien to the middle class.
    - chipsrafferty 3y ago
      It sounds like you grew up lower middle class. Poverty is never "do I buy a washing machine or buy something else" it's "can I afford to go to the laundromat this month".
- MisterBastahrd 3y ago
  You have absolutely zero idea what poverty is if that's your list. You just described the difference between lower-middle and middle class. Poverty is when you have to quit your job yet again because your CCMS paperwork got screwed up and the daycare won't take your kid after school. Poverty is when you have to make visits to the food bank on a regular basis for commodities because the price of food is outstripping what EBT is offering. Poverty is when you don't have a strong attachment to any of your physical possessions even if you've worked long and hard for them because one medical problem could make it impossible for you to afford your rent, so you might as well not become too attached to anything that you'll eventually lose. Poverty is when you either keep your cash on you at all times or you pay a 3% fee to a debit card company to keep preloading a prepaid card because the banks don't think you're creditworthy enough to open an account. Poverty is when you make stupid decisions with money when you have it because there are just so many occasions when you don't. Poverty is getting CPS visits because even though you put your kid in the best clothes that you could afford, some teacher decided that today was the day she was going to white knight your child away from you. Poverty is being ashamed to be dragged through a book fair only to be the only child to not purchase anything because you don't dare ask your momma for money given how much she struggles. Poverty is when you gut through toothaches and abscesses because you don't have dental insurance and nobody does that work for free. That's poverty. What you described is an inconvenienced life.
  - erellsworth 3y ago
    This reminds me of the Monty Python Four Yorkshiremen sketch, with 4 rich dudes bragging about who had the poorest childhood[1]. One could just as easily compare your poverty with that of people in the poorest places in the world. Oh, your kids get to go to school? Our kids spend their days digging through rubbish heaps. Oh your kid was taken away by CPS? Our kid died from inhaling toxic fumes from melting down the old computer parts they found digging through the rubbish heaps. Oh, you have a debit card fee? We're don't even have ATMs, or banks. Poverty is a spectrum. Just because X is poorer than Y doesn't mean Y isn't also poor. 1: https://youtu.be/26ZDB9h7BLY?si=hyxK8ZvzLPhbQ8JI https://youtu.be/26ZDB9h7BLY?si=hyxK8ZvzLPhbQ8JI
    - 3y ago
ganzuul 3y ago
Yes.

Geisterde 3y ago

Prices are a heuristic people use for making choices more simply, because the number of ways an object can be defined is more numerous than the billions of atoms its made of. Further, for an item to be produced at scale and over time in the market, the profit must exceed the costs. Now, if you are able to see the value in something despite not having a firm monetization strategy, that just puts you in the same mental frame as the greatest entrepreneurs in the world. Jeff Bezos said something about how you should do what matters and find the profit later, it was written on the wall somewhere. SpaceX still might not be profitable (not sure), but the promise of 100kt of payload to LOE with recoverable lower and upper stages? Its worth the weight!

krisoft 3y ago
> Further, for an item to be produced at scale and over time in the market, the profit must exceed the costs. I think you meant to say revenue? > Now, if you are able to see the value in something despite not having a firm monetization strategy, that just puts you in the same mental frame as the greatest entrepreneurs in the world. It is also the same mental frame every starving artist shares too. They are able to see the value in what they do despite not having a firm monetization strategy.
- Geisterde 3y ago
  >I think you meant to say revenue? Yes, thanks. >It is also the same mental frame every starving artist shares too. They are able to see the value in what they do despite not having a firm monetization strategy. If you read the next sentence you can see I was gently incepting that along with the idea that successful people see value before they see the price they can attach to it. To even waste your time performing the economic calculation to determine the numbers you must first be motivated by something, there is a period of time however short between the idea and its technical analysis, the value you see and its monetization. Hey, that doesnt mean monetization isnt important, but it can be forestalled for important reasons like exploring the field or gaining experience, just as much as unimportant reasons, those, being subjective to the one paying the bills.
ganzuul 3y ago