4 ms·

Thinking of Israel as colonialism is denying the right to exist as a nation of millions of people. As justified as you may think your morale position is, it doe

by kmos17 3y ago

Thinking of Israel as colonialism is denying the right to exist as a nation of millions of people. As justified as you may think your morale position is, it does not justify promulgating another genocide as the answer. The labels of colonialism and genocide to what is happening there completely close you off to an actual honest discussion of the situation. Was it colonialism when all the jewish populations of Arab countries were forced into exile after the partition?

mrkeen 3y ago
> Was it colonialism when all the jewish populations of Arab countries were forced into exile after the partition? I'm not sure. Just reading it now, it looks like Palestine was cut in half, and half got given to the Jews. Was my reading incorrect? How should I tie that action to colonialism?
- kmos17 3y ago
  I meant that the simplistic view that Israel is a colonial state is misguided and distorting the discussion. When the partition happened jewish populations were also forced into exile by Arab states yet this is never even discussed alongside the Nakba: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-refugees-from-arab-countries https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-refugees-from-ar... That doesn’t excuse what Israel does in Gaza or the West Bank, but it is not a simple evil Israel vs. oppressed Palestinians situation that it is made out to be, and this is not a colonial state vs. indigenous population struggle either, both sides have valid claims and are mostly indigenous to the land being fought over. The narrative that this is a colonial struggle is extremely dangerous (what is the proposed solution, to remove an entire nation state?) and it will not lead to a solution since it is a complete non-starter for Israel. Labelling what is happening - which is horrific enough as it is - a genocide is also a vast exaggeration at best and really inaccurate, and it is a very powerful propaganda tool being used to dehumanize Israelis as a whole (if it is genocide they are acting inhumanely and anything done to them should be ignored or dismissed like the reaction to Oct 7 shows).
  - Qem 3y ago
    > what is the proposed solution, to remove an entire nation state? No. To follow the steps of South Africa, and end apartheid.
  - hypeit 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - kmos17 3y ago
      If you are going to make such hyperbolic statements as saying the current rate of killing is faster than the nazis, you might want to do a quick google search first: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aau7292 https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aau7292 And again think of what you are stating as fact, you are parroting a very single sided view of history, that Israel is a colonial state, but even if you were right, what is your solution? There are effectively two states with millions of natives, and they both vehemently do not want to live together in a single state.
      - hypeit 3y ago
        [flagged]
      - runarberg 3y ago
        I’m not gonna argue the rate of killing compared to the holocaust, as you are obviously right. However I ask you to consider the implication. First that the holocaust took place over a longer period, and peaked at a certain time. The rate of killing Israel is doing still has the potential to go up, and even if it won’t, it is still a horror at such a large scale that it leaves the same sickening feeling among us all. Just because something isn’t “as bad” as the holocaust (yet) it doesn’t mean it isn’t worthy of the same attention. We should hold humanity to a higher standard. Now as for colonialism. It is pretty hard to see Israel as not a colonial state. - East Jerusalem is fully under the control of Israel, as is most of the West Bank. Israel allows some autonomy in some areas of the West Bank, but it this autonomy is still under Israel’s ultimate control. - Settlers are still moving into occupied territory which is internationally recognized as Palestinian (both on the West Bank and East Jerusalem). Israel does not recognize an independent Palestine, and in a recent UN vote, did not recognize Palestinian right of self determination. - In the West Bank Israel prohibits free movement of Palestinians via several checkpoints. Israeli settlers illegally living in the West Bank have roads which Palestinians are not allowed to travel on. - Israel controls all but one borders crossings into Palestine. Israel controls the airspace of Palestine, Israel controls the sea access of Palestine. Israel imposes a total blockade over Gaza. - Hamas is the legitimate government of Palestine, elected in a free election in 2006. Israel is currently waging a war against this government. - Israel illegally occupies the Golan Heights which is internationally recognized to be Syrian territory. It has been the stated goal of the last 3 governments of Israel to expand the settler population on the Golan Heights. If all these points combined do not indict Israel as a colonial state, than one must call into question whether the Donetsk and Luhansk are really Russian colonies, or whether Ireland was ever really a British colony.
Qem 3y ago
> Thinking of Israel as colonialism is denying the right to exist as a nation of millions of people. No. Just like thinking apartheid South Africa as racist didn't deny it the right to exist as a nation. South Africa still exists as a nation, as any online map shows. It just don't exist as an apartheid regime anymore. Israel can do the same.
- kmos17 3y ago
  Yes apartheid is a label that can be applied but only when talking about the occupied territories, what Israel is doing in the West Bank is a system of population control that seems very close to or worst than apartheid, and with the colonist movement backed by the Israeli army it is effectively a form of ethnic cleansing, albeit a very ineffective one so far considering the growth of the Palestinian population. But Israel itself is not an apartheid state, it is the most inclusive and liberal democracy in the entire region. Calling Israel an apartheid state because of what they do in the West Bank is a stretch, it would be like calling the USA a military fascist dictatorship because of what they did in Iraq. And regardless of wanting to think of the whole of Palestine as a single country, the most important fact is the Palestinians and Israeli have absolutely no desire to live together in a single state, the only option the vast majority of Palestinians want is a single Palestinian state with no Israelis or jews (from the river to the sea). The Israelis are split but most favor a two state solution. So your simplistic solution is not one that is grounded in any reality, it is a pure fantasy and projection of western virtue, and if you had any understanding of the actual situation you would realize that what you are advocating for (the dissolution of Israel and Palestine into a single state) will only happen with the genocide (an actual one) of one of the two populations fighting over that piece of land. Maybe it can happen one day with the two populations living in peace, but that is certainly not the case now, and all the hysteric propaganda is making it even less likely.
  - Qem 3y ago
    > But Israel itself is not an apartheid state, it is the most inclusive and liberal democracy in the entire region. Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International have a different assessment: https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/isra... https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-... Amnesty Q&A on Israel's Apartheid: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/research/2022/02/qa-israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-cruel-system-of-domination-and-crime-against-humanity/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/research/2022/02/qa-israel...

by kmos17 3y ago

mrkeen 3y ago

> Was it colonialism when all the jewish populations of Arab countries were forced into exile after the partition? I'm not sure. Just reading it now, it looks like Palestine was cut in half, and half got given to the Jews. Was my reading incorrect? How should I tie that action to colonialism?

kmos17 3y ago
I meant that the simplistic view that Israel is a colonial state is misguided and distorting the discussion. When the partition happened jewish populations were also forced into exile by Arab states yet this is never even discussed alongside the Nakba: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-refugees-from-arab-countries https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jewish-refugees-from-ar... That doesn’t excuse what Israel does in Gaza or the West Bank, but it is not a simple evil Israel vs. oppressed Palestinians situation that it is made out to be, and this is not a colonial state vs. indigenous population struggle either, both sides have valid claims and are mostly indigenous to the land being fought over. The narrative that this is a colonial struggle is extremely dangerous (what is the proposed solution, to remove an entire nation state?) and it will not lead to a solution since it is a complete non-starter for Israel. Labelling what is happening - which is horrific enough as it is - a genocide is also a vast exaggeration at best and really inaccurate, and it is a very powerful propaganda tool being used to dehumanize Israelis as a whole (if it is genocide they are acting inhumanely and anything done to them should be ignored or dismissed like the reaction to Oct 7 shows).
- Qem 3y ago
  > what is the proposed solution, to remove an entire nation state? No. To follow the steps of South Africa, and end apartheid.
- hypeit 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - kmos17 3y ago
    If you are going to make such hyperbolic statements as saying the current rate of killing is faster than the nazis, you might want to do a quick google search first: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aau7292 https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aau7292 And again think of what you are stating as fact, you are parroting a very single sided view of history, that Israel is a colonial state, but even if you were right, what is your solution? There are effectively two states with millions of natives, and they both vehemently do not want to live together in a single state.
    - hypeit 3y ago
      [flagged]
    - runarberg 3y ago
      I’m not gonna argue the rate of killing compared to the holocaust, as you are obviously right. However I ask you to consider the implication. First that the holocaust took place over a longer period, and peaked at a certain time. The rate of killing Israel is doing still has the potential to go up, and even if it won’t, it is still a horror at such a large scale that it leaves the same sickening feeling among us all. Just because something isn’t “as bad” as the holocaust (yet) it doesn’t mean it isn’t worthy of the same attention. We should hold humanity to a higher standard. Now as for colonialism. It is pretty hard to see Israel as not a colonial state. - East Jerusalem is fully under the control of Israel, as is most of the West Bank. Israel allows some autonomy in some areas of the West Bank, but it this autonomy is still under Israel’s ultimate control. - Settlers are still moving into occupied territory which is internationally recognized as Palestinian (both on the West Bank and East Jerusalem). Israel does not recognize an independent Palestine, and in a recent UN vote, did not recognize Palestinian right of self determination. - In the West Bank Israel prohibits free movement of Palestinians via several checkpoints. Israeli settlers illegally living in the West Bank have roads which Palestinians are not allowed to travel on. - Israel controls all but one borders crossings into Palestine. Israel controls the airspace of Palestine, Israel controls the sea access of Palestine. Israel imposes a total blockade over Gaza. - Hamas is the legitimate government of Palestine, elected in a free election in 2006. Israel is currently waging a war against this government. - Israel illegally occupies the Golan Heights which is internationally recognized to be Syrian territory. It has been the stated goal of the last 3 governments of Israel to expand the settler population on the Golan Heights. If all these points combined do not indict Israel as a colonial state, than one must call into question whether the Donetsk and Luhansk are really Russian colonies, or whether Ireland was ever really a British colony.

Qem 3y ago

> Thinking of Israel as colonialism is denying the right to exist as a nation of millions of people. No. Just like thinking apartheid South Africa as racist didn't deny it the right to exist as a nation. South Africa still exists as a nation, as any online map shows. It just don't exist as an apartheid regime anymore. Israel can do the same.

kmos17 3y ago
Yes apartheid is a label that can be applied but only when talking about the occupied territories, what Israel is doing in the West Bank is a system of population control that seems very close to or worst than apartheid, and with the colonist movement backed by the Israeli army it is effectively a form of ethnic cleansing, albeit a very ineffective one so far considering the growth of the Palestinian population. But Israel itself is not an apartheid state, it is the most inclusive and liberal democracy in the entire region. Calling Israel an apartheid state because of what they do in the West Bank is a stretch, it would be like calling the USA a military fascist dictatorship because of what they did in Iraq. And regardless of wanting to think of the whole of Palestine as a single country, the most important fact is the Palestinians and Israeli have absolutely no desire to live together in a single state, the only option the vast majority of Palestinians want is a single Palestinian state with no Israelis or jews (from the river to the sea). The Israelis are split but most favor a two state solution. So your simplistic solution is not one that is grounded in any reality, it is a pure fantasy and projection of western virtue, and if you had any understanding of the actual situation you would realize that what you are advocating for (the dissolution of Israel and Palestine into a single state) will only happen with the genocide (an actual one) of one of the two populations fighting over that piece of land. Maybe it can happen one day with the two populations living in peace, but that is certainly not the case now, and all the hysteric propaganda is making it even less likely.
- Qem 3y ago
  > But Israel itself is not an apartheid state, it is the most inclusive and liberal democracy in the entire region. Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International have a different assessment: https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/isra... https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-... Amnesty Q&A on Israel's Apartheid: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/research/2022/02/qa-israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-cruel-system-of-domination-and-crime-against-humanity/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/research/2022/02/qa-israel...