5 ms·

This is interesting to me. I'm 20 years old and I'm not in college nor do I plan to finish a degree (and if it wasn't for technology greats like Peter Thiel an

by ZephyrP 14y ago

This is interesting to me. I'm 20 years old and I'm not in college nor do I plan to finish a degree (and if it wasn't for technology greats like Peter Thiel and PG advice, I might still be making a $100,000 mistake). I'm a fairly normal guy, I've been out of high school for 3 years now and I'm making slightly less than Bureau of Labor Statistic's 2010 Median Income for 'Software Developers', which I believe is more than enough to not be considered underemployed. I see a lot of psychic pain in my peers about how hard work is or the labor market is so difficult, but to be frank the failures I see are directly attributable to plain laziness in a generation addicted to easy and inane pleasure. I'm afraid young people of today are losing the real virtues of life like living with passion and taking responsibility for who you are. The ability to make something out of yourself and feeling joy in life is more alive today than in any other point in human history. I see a lot of active rejection of the ideals of hacker culture, perhaps epitomized by my generation's obsession with video games (which, incidentally, I think could be argued as more detrimental to human wellness than even the most societally hated and destructive addictive stimulants like methamphetamine or cocaine) This is really a shame, as one thing that comes out of hacker culture is a feeling of a real kind of exuberance about your work. Your work is yours to create. I've read the college labor statistics with some interest, even fear. But when I read them, I can't help but think that something essential about our generation and present technological zeitgeist is being left out. As if somehow our work is simply just a confluence of forces far beyond our control, framing college graduates as fragmented or marginalized which opens up a world of excuses. From Chaitin to Stallman, when hackers talk about the meaning of work, they're not talking about abstract decisions, they're talking about doing something that has concrete consequences. It may be true that there are seven billion people on the planet, never the less, your work matters in material terms. In short, I'd encourage any young person my age to not write themselves off as a victim of societal forces. It's always our decision who we are and what we do with our lives.

guynamedloren 14y ago
> As if somehow our work is simply just a confluence of forces far beyond our control... In short, I'd encourage any young person my age to not write themselves off as a victim of societal forces. It's always our decision who we are and what we do with our lives. You are wise. Please write a book for our generation.
- ZephyrP 14y ago
  Thank you for your gracious words, but I'd ask you to thank Robert Solomon and Sarte.
lifeformed 14y ago
Not everybody is a creator at heart though. And even among creators, programmers are the ones with the best opportunity to create something out of nothing. The non-creators, or the creators-in-high-entry-fields, are the ones losing jobs and opportunities. So yeah, if you have a CS-related degree and a passion for programming, you have amazing opportunities that should not be wasted.
- ZephyrP 14y ago
  I think you're absolutely correct, I also think there's a lot more people making decisions that optimize for short-term satisfaction rather than long-term happiness. It's true that my deepest happiness comes from creation but I believe I'm far from alone (especially amongst college attendees, who are supposed to be the endlessly curious!). Even still, maybe not everyone is a creator, but we are the result of 6 billion years of evolution -- act like it.
rudiger 14y ago
Can you elaborate on how video games are more detrimental to human wellness than certain drugs?
- jballanc 14y ago
  Many video games these days are designed as Skinner Boxes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skinner_box http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skinner_box). Drugs have some of the same effects, but their addictive powers are often limited by adverse side effects (e.g. get too drunk, you vomit) and the build up of tolerance (e.g. a heroin addict continually needs bigger doses for the same effect). Since video games play directly on psychological reward centers, they can push a person much farther into a response/reward cycle than drugs can.
- drivebyacct2 14y ago
  What a weird and incredibly false dichotomy. I smoke a bunch of pot, play a bunch of Halo, have had internships with 3 major corporations, worked as an independent contractor last summer and have a 6-figure job lined up when I graduate. On top of working 12 hours a week with 15-18 credit hours during my Junior and Senior year, I also have 5 side projects that will either make nice additions to my open source portfolio or could potentially become products if I gave them the attention they need. I think ZephyrP is blinded by his good fortune to not understand that: one, software developers are in crazy demand compared to, for example, "creative writers"; and two, that the economy IS quite bad right now and that this is a generalized extension of the unemployment problems across the country. That having been said, when it comes to things like video games and drugs, I think Zephyr's point about "you have to make your own luck" logic is right (granted I have no idea why there is a pot-shot in there about video games). A person's work ethic is the root cause and "video games" and "drugs" are silly remarks for people that don't understand or see that there are plenty of us who can indulge and still live perfectly productive lives. Further, I don't know of any indication that "video game" playing is trading off with employment. At all. On the other hand, there are probably thousands of statisticians and economists who could give you very specific reasons for the downturn in employment and show a trend that will probably make it's way across all segments of society including college grads. Also, people need to understand that they need marketable degrees and they need to understand that employers are learning that all degrees are not equal and you ABSOLUTELY MUST have the skills that your degree assert and you must be able to communicate well and articulate why you deserve a job.
CDRdude 14y ago
>I see a lot of active rejection of the ideals of hacker culture, perhaps epitomized by my generation's obsession with video games (which, incidentally, I think could be argued as more detrimental to human wellness than even the most societally hated and destructive addictive stimulants like methamphetamine or cocaine) I'd be interested in reading this argument.
thrownaway779 14y ago
oh come on with this bs, while you feel so smug about achieving success through hard work, super obvious you got lucky with an early start. your profile shows you learned assembly before you could vote and started writing a nosql database when you were 19. you're a "normal guy" and im the second coming. if you're an autistic supergenius there will always be code work, but some of us have to live in the real world you clearly do not inhabit.
- daeken 14y ago
  There's absolutely no reason to call him/her "autistic" or anything like it. Take that attitude somewhere else.
- apsurd 14y ago
  The funny thing about an excuse, no matter the correctness, is its inverse relation to success. all interpretations of success notwithstanding.
magicalist 14y ago
> I see a lot of psychic pain in my peers about how hard work is or the labor market is so difficult, but to be frank the failures I see are directly attributable to plain laziness in a generation addicted to easy and inane pleasure. You probably live in a bubble then. Yes, we all know these people, but they are the minority of those affected by the current economy. Unemployment is vastly higher in groups without college (or high school) degrees, meanwhile in many places there was barely a recession in the tech sector, and if there was, it was over very quickly. I feel like every HN thread about a successful startup, or a reminder of the excellent salaries we get for doing things that we love, should include someone behind us, whispering in our ear that the majority of bankruptcies are from people with unexpected medical problems, 75% of whom had insurance, and that last year 20% of children in the US grew up in households making less than $22,000 for a family of four.
- ZephyrP 14y ago
  This is overly personal and about to be a little Horatio Alger, but it's a relevant anecdote to the bubble comment so I'll throw it out there -- I personally don't come from a household making more than 25,000 a year, I lived in the esteemed estate of 'Mountain View Trailer Park' just a few years ago and have always attended public school, My stepfather was a construction worker and my mother taught ESL. My insistence on refusing to believe that you are the result of forces beyond your control perhaps comes directly from this experience. Plenty of people told me that escaping my class was impossible because of the various capitalist systems of control, yet here I am today, hobnobbing with high HN society (kidding). I'll accept that our medical system imposes undue stress upon those within it, but equally so, it's tough to not concede that many medical problems are ultimately self-induced through poor diet and exercise habits spanning over many years. I'll reiterate -- your life is yours to create.
  - dlmstd00 14y ago
    Well I guess your anecdote beats statistics, let's all go home now!
    - 14y ago

by ZephyrP 14y ago

guynamedloren 14y ago

> As if somehow our work is simply just a confluence of forces far beyond our control... In short, I'd encourage any young person my age to not write themselves off as a victim of societal forces. It's always our decision who we are and what we do with our lives. You are wise. Please write a book for our generation.

ZephyrP 14y ago
Thank you for your gracious words, but I'd ask you to thank Robert Solomon and Sarte.

lifeformed 14y ago

Not everybody is a creator at heart though. And even among creators, programmers are the ones with the best opportunity to create something out of nothing. The non-creators, or the creators-in-high-entry-fields, are the ones losing jobs and opportunities. So yeah, if you have a CS-related degree and a passion for programming, you have amazing opportunities that should not be wasted.

ZephyrP 14y ago
I think you're absolutely correct, I also think there's a lot more people making decisions that optimize for short-term satisfaction rather than long-term happiness. It's true that my deepest happiness comes from creation but I believe I'm far from alone (especially amongst college attendees, who are supposed to be the endlessly curious!). Even still, maybe not everyone is a creator, but we are the result of 6 billion years of evolution -- act like it.

rudiger 14y ago

Can you elaborate on how video games are more detrimental to human wellness than certain drugs?

jballanc 14y ago
Many video games these days are designed as Skinner Boxes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skinner_box http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skinner_box). Drugs have some of the same effects, but their addictive powers are often limited by adverse side effects (e.g. get too drunk, you vomit) and the build up of tolerance (e.g. a heroin addict continually needs bigger doses for the same effect). Since video games play directly on psychological reward centers, they can push a person much farther into a response/reward cycle than drugs can.
drivebyacct2 14y ago
What a weird and incredibly false dichotomy. I smoke a bunch of pot, play a bunch of Halo, have had internships with 3 major corporations, worked as an independent contractor last summer and have a 6-figure job lined up when I graduate. On top of working 12 hours a week with 15-18 credit hours during my Junior and Senior year, I also have 5 side projects that will either make nice additions to my open source portfolio or could potentially become products if I gave them the attention they need. I think ZephyrP is blinded by his good fortune to not understand that: one, software developers are in crazy demand compared to, for example, "creative writers"; and two, that the economy IS quite bad right now and that this is a generalized extension of the unemployment problems across the country. That having been said, when it comes to things like video games and drugs, I think Zephyr's point about "you have to make your own luck" logic is right (granted I have no idea why there is a pot-shot in there about video games). A person's work ethic is the root cause and "video games" and "drugs" are silly remarks for people that don't understand or see that there are plenty of us who can indulge and still live perfectly productive lives. Further, I don't know of any indication that "video game" playing is trading off with employment. At all. On the other hand, there are probably thousands of statisticians and economists who could give you very specific reasons for the downturn in employment and show a trend that will probably make it's way across all segments of society including college grads. Also, people need to understand that they need marketable degrees and they need to understand that employers are learning that all degrees are not equal and you ABSOLUTELY MUST have the skills that your degree assert and you must be able to communicate well and articulate why you deserve a job.

CDRdude 14y ago

>I see a lot of active rejection of the ideals of hacker culture, perhaps epitomized by my generation's obsession with video games (which, incidentally, I think could be argued as more detrimental to human wellness than even the most societally hated and destructive addictive stimulants like methamphetamine or cocaine) I'd be interested in reading this argument.

thrownaway779 14y ago

oh come on with this bs, while you feel so smug about achieving success through hard work, super obvious you got lucky with an early start. your profile shows you learned assembly before you could vote and started writing a nosql database when you were 19. you're a "normal guy" and im the second coming. if you're an autistic supergenius there will always be code work, but some of us have to live in the real world you clearly do not inhabit.

daeken 14y ago
There's absolutely no reason to call him/her "autistic" or anything like it. Take that attitude somewhere else.
apsurd 14y ago
The funny thing about an excuse, no matter the correctness, is its inverse relation to success. all interpretations of success notwithstanding.

magicalist 14y ago

> I see a lot of psychic pain in my peers about how hard work is or the labor market is so difficult, but to be frank the failures I see are directly attributable to plain laziness in a generation addicted to easy and inane pleasure. You probably live in a bubble then. Yes, we all know these people, but they are the minority of those affected by the current economy. Unemployment is vastly higher in groups without college (or high school) degrees, meanwhile in many places there was barely a recession in the tech sector, and if there was, it was over very quickly. I feel like every HN thread about a successful startup, or a reminder of the excellent salaries we get for doing things that we love, should include someone behind us, whispering in our ear that the majority of bankruptcies are from people with unexpected medical problems, 75% of whom had insurance, and that last year 20% of children in the US grew up in households making less than $22,000 for a family of four.

ZephyrP 14y ago
This is overly personal and about to be a little Horatio Alger, but it's a relevant anecdote to the bubble comment so I'll throw it out there -- I personally don't come from a household making more than 25,000 a year, I lived in the esteemed estate of 'Mountain View Trailer Park' just a few years ago and have always attended public school, My stepfather was a construction worker and my mother taught ESL. My insistence on refusing to believe that you are the result of forces beyond your control perhaps comes directly from this experience. Plenty of people told me that escaping my class was impossible because of the various capitalist systems of control, yet here I am today, hobnobbing with high HN society (kidding). I'll accept that our medical system imposes undue stress upon those within it, but equally so, it's tough to not concede that many medical problems are ultimately self-induced through poor diet and exercise habits spanning over many years. I'll reiterate -- your life is yours to create.
- dlmstd00 14y ago
  Well I guess your anecdote beats statistics, let's all go home now!
  - 14y ago