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When has Apple ever sued over patent infringement? There was the Samsung case [1] but that was a design issue. Apple, Google, Meta and other big tech companies

by jmyeet 3y ago

When has Apple ever sued over patent infringement? There was the Samsung case [1] but that was a design issue. Apple, Google, Meta and other big tech companies have used patents defensively not offensively. That is, as mutually-assured destruction. The real villains in this story are the patent holding companies that sue in East Texas to get in front of one judge that, at a time, heard a quarter of all US patent cases, all brought by NPEs (non-practicing entities aka patent trolls). IIRC there was at a time another judge and I heard a story that a popular law firm employed a relative to conflict out the second judge so they could get the judge they wanted. Apple aren't the bad guys in the patent mess. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Inc._v._Samsung_Electronics_Co https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Inc._v._Samsung_Electron....

layer8 3y ago
> When has Apple ever sued over patent infringement? Apple vs. HTC: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litigation_involving_Apple_Inc.#Apple_v._HTC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litigation_involving_Apple_Inc... Normally, the threat implied by a patent moat is sufficient, so it doesn’t come to a lawsuit.
- alt227 3y ago
  What is hilarious in that article is the quote from Jobs himself: "[We] think competition is healthy, but competitors should create their own original technology, not steal ours"
- jorvi 3y ago
  It was exquisite to see Apple complain for several generations that everyone was copying them, then turn around and pretty much clone the HTC M7. Then they had the gall to sue HTC. Glad the judge ended up forcing their hand, a rare case where might didn’t make right.
  - wmeredith 3y ago
    What product of theirs is a clone of the HTC M7? I'm looking at the device, and I don't get it.
    - jorvi 3y ago
      iPhone 6. The HTC A9 is another one, but that was much less high profile as it isn’t a flagship device.
mherdeg 3y ago
Would you accept weaponized trademark infringement as a sibling to patent law? The behavior described here seems odd -- I wouldn't call it "good" or "bad" in a moral sense just technically impressive: https://blog.giovanh.com/blog/2023/10/26/apples-trademark-exploit/ https://blog.giovanh.com/blog/2023/10/26/apples-trademark-ex... and https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/14/21436760/us-customs-statement-oneplus-buds-seized-apple-airpod-trademarks https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/14/21436760/us-customs-state....
- jmyeet 3y ago
  Since the article is about patents I, too, limited the scope of my comments--quite deliberately--to patents so these are really out-of-scope. I mentioned Apple v. Samsung because of the confusing language ie "design patent". The first case you mention is against third-party repair and parts. This isn't a simple issue. At one end of spectrum people have died from fake accessories (eg [1]). So while I trust (and use) Anker devices that are sold in the US, would I buy and use a charger in Cambodia? Probably not. So I support the idea of third-party repair but you have to deal with the question of quality and the parts being suitable. The second relates to, again, design (and trademark). This is less defensible. I mean they do look like Airpods but really how many ways can you make an earpod? [1]: https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/apple-replacing-fake-iphone-chargers-after-electric-shock-death-1.1313112 https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/apple-replacing-fake-iphone-...
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
vasco 3y ago
From the article we're commenting on: > Masimo CEO Joe Kiani told CNN he believes Apple deliberately infringed on his company’s patents. But the companies have been at loggerheads for years. In October 2022, Apple filed two patent infringement lawsuits against Masimo.
Y_Y 3y ago
Thisnis the internet, no need to post half remembered fragments. I'm sure the judge you're referring to is the notorious Rodney Gilstrap. Plenty of good info on that operation, e.g. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/06/east-texas-judges-invention-a-method-for-hampering-patent-defendants/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/06/east-texas-judge...
- jmyeet 3y ago
  That was, I believe, they judge they wanted to get in front of. At one point there was another judge in that district that they didn't want to get in front of and a law firm just so happened to employ the second judge's son (? IIRC).
  - grungyneer 3y ago
    Judge Jacqueline Scott Corley didn't recuse herself from hearing the Microsoft-Activision FTC case just because her son works at Microsoft (and ruled in msfts favor!) So are recusals for such conflicts really optional? https://www.thebignewsletter.com/p/will-the-biggest-tech-merger-of-all https://www.thebignewsletter.com/p/will-the-biggest-tech-mer...
vvanders 3y ago
https://www.phonearena.com/news/HTC-had-shipped-blocked-phones-with-Apple-patent-work-around-release-coming_id30246 https://www.phonearena.com/news/HTC-had-shipped-blocked-phon... Happened back in '11 when they were going after Android OEMs, despite the fact that the actual devices weren't infringing they still tried to get them blocked.
kimixa 3y ago
While not "sue-ing" but instead the other way - being trying to avoid paying for patented tech. They tried to stop paying licenses for their PowerVR-derived GPUs, which they were explicitly developed from so no "convergent evolution" excuses. Announcing it to the market then caused a massive abandonment of PowerVR and stock price drop, and purchase at fire sale prices by a Chinese "Strategic investment" group. It never even made it to court - and they have since scrubbed all statements about that, and to this day still pay for the architecture license. Just too late for PowerVR as an independent IP vendor. Never be a supplier to Apple - they will screw you over.
- smugma 3y ago
  Foxconn and TSMC have good businesses on being suppliers to Apple. Sharp too until they got acquired by Foxconn.
  - kimixa 3y ago
    I might expand this to "Being a Tech supplier to Apple is a mistake" - they seem quite happy with exporting their labor-intensive costs, and whitewashing themselves of any "questionable" activities in the process. TSMC is an interesting one, as they're pretty much the only person who have made that business model work, and even Apple's total business in that area is smaller than their scale seems to require.

by jmyeet 3y ago

layer8 3y ago

> When has Apple ever sued over patent infringement? Apple vs. HTC: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litigation_involving_Apple_Inc.#Apple_v._HTC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litigation_involving_Apple_Inc... Normally, the threat implied by a patent moat is sufficient, so it doesn’t come to a lawsuit.

alt227 3y ago
What is hilarious in that article is the quote from Jobs himself: "[We] think competition is healthy, but competitors should create their own original technology, not steal ours"
jorvi 3y ago
It was exquisite to see Apple complain for several generations that everyone was copying them, then turn around and pretty much clone the HTC M7. Then they had the gall to sue HTC. Glad the judge ended up forcing their hand, a rare case where might didn’t make right.
- wmeredith 3y ago
  What product of theirs is a clone of the HTC M7? I'm looking at the device, and I don't get it.
  - jorvi 3y ago
    iPhone 6. The HTC A9 is another one, but that was much less high profile as it isn’t a flagship device.

mherdeg 3y ago

Would you accept weaponized trademark infringement as a sibling to patent law? The behavior described here seems odd -- I wouldn't call it "good" or "bad" in a moral sense just technically impressive: https://blog.giovanh.com/blog/2023/10/26/apples-trademark-exploit/ https://blog.giovanh.com/blog/2023/10/26/apples-trademark-ex... and https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/14/21436760/us-customs-statement-oneplus-buds-seized-apple-airpod-trademarks https://www.theverge.com/2020/9/14/21436760/us-customs-state....

jmyeet 3y ago
Since the article is about patents I, too, limited the scope of my comments--quite deliberately--to patents so these are really out-of-scope. I mentioned Apple v. Samsung because of the confusing language ie "design patent". The first case you mention is against third-party repair and parts. This isn't a simple issue. At one end of spectrum people have died from fake accessories (eg [1]). So while I trust (and use) Anker devices that are sold in the US, would I buy and use a charger in Cambodia? Probably not. So I support the idea of third-party repair but you have to deal with the question of quality and the parts being suitable. The second relates to, again, design (and trademark). This is less defensible. I mean they do look like Airpods but really how many ways can you make an earpod? [1]: https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/apple-replacing-fake-iphone-chargers-after-electric-shock-death-1.1313112 https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/apple-replacing-fake-iphone-...
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

vasco 3y ago

From the article we're commenting on: > Masimo CEO Joe Kiani told CNN he believes Apple deliberately infringed on his company’s patents. But the companies have been at loggerheads for years. In October 2022, Apple filed two patent infringement lawsuits against Masimo.

Y_Y 3y ago

Thisnis the internet, no need to post half remembered fragments. I'm sure the judge you're referring to is the notorious Rodney Gilstrap. Plenty of good info on that operation, e.g. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/06/east-texas-judges-invention-a-method-for-hampering-patent-defendants/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/06/east-texas-judge...

jmyeet 3y ago
That was, I believe, they judge they wanted to get in front of. At one point there was another judge in that district that they didn't want to get in front of and a law firm just so happened to employ the second judge's son (? IIRC).
- grungyneer 3y ago
  Judge Jacqueline Scott Corley didn't recuse herself from hearing the Microsoft-Activision FTC case just because her son works at Microsoft (and ruled in msfts favor!) So are recusals for such conflicts really optional? https://www.thebignewsletter.com/p/will-the-biggest-tech-merger-of-all https://www.thebignewsletter.com/p/will-the-biggest-tech-mer...

vvanders 3y ago

https://www.phonearena.com/news/HTC-had-shipped-blocked-phones-with-Apple-patent-work-around-release-coming_id30246 https://www.phonearena.com/news/HTC-had-shipped-blocked-phon... Happened back in '11 when they were going after Android OEMs, despite the fact that the actual devices weren't infringing they still tried to get them blocked.

kimixa 3y ago

While not "sue-ing" but instead the other way - being trying to avoid paying for patented tech. They tried to stop paying licenses for their PowerVR-derived GPUs, which they were explicitly developed from so no "convergent evolution" excuses. Announcing it to the market then caused a massive abandonment of PowerVR and stock price drop, and purchase at fire sale prices by a Chinese "Strategic investment" group. It never even made it to court - and they have since scrubbed all statements about that, and to this day still pay for the architecture license. Just too late for PowerVR as an independent IP vendor. Never be a supplier to Apple - they will screw you over.

smugma 3y ago
Foxconn and TSMC have good businesses on being suppliers to Apple. Sharp too until they got acquired by Foxconn.
- kimixa 3y ago
  I might expand this to "Being a Tech supplier to Apple is a mistake" - they seem quite happy with exporting their labor-intensive costs, and whitewashing themselves of any "questionable" activities in the process. TSMC is an interesting one, as they're pretty much the only person who have made that business model work, and even Apple's total business in that area is smaller than their scale seems to require.