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> there is no wonder why 2 million Palestinians are reluctant to leave their homes again How do you know they're reluctant ? If Germany called them in like the

> there is no wonder why 2 million Palestinians are reluctant to leave their homes again How do you know they're reluctant ? If Germany called them in like they did the Syrians are you sure none would come? Seems like the vast majority of Syrians in Europe have no intention of going back so its not like Arabs/Muslims are immune to the concept of leaving. I won't argue that no one will admit to want to leave (Hamas may shoot people even for leaving bombed areas, let alone totally leave the strip), but deep down I won't be surprised if many want to leave. I also won't be surprised if given a safe passage and a visa for them and their families - many would actually leave. Right now Hamas/Egypt won't allow it and probably Europeans aren't too keen on this as well. > leave their homes again Btw their narrative is that they're still refugees, so I'm not sure how they can see Gaza as their "home" but also want to "go back" to their old homes in what is now Israel.

johnnyworker 3y ago
This part isn't optional: > given the history of the Nakba where Palestinians were ethnically cleansed from big parts of historic Palestine Being occupied, mistreated, droven away so that one "wants" to leave is all the same as being outright murdered: ethnic cleansing and genocide. You're essentially asking "but are you sure they know it's genocide, too? Are you sure they mind", and the answer is "it doesn't matter".
- weatherlite 3y ago
  I'm not sure what you're talking about, this is not what I asked. The Nakba doesn't explain much, it was 75 years ago and it seems ludicrous to me people would definitely stay somewhere because of stuff that happened 75 years ago. Maybe some of them prefer Canada or Germany or Dubai, that doesn't sound crazy to me. And for sure some of them would prefer to stay, no matter what even. But we don't know that's the majority - the truth is they are prevented from leaving - first and foremost by Hamas. I thought the West was pro taking in people who live in war zones, and I would hope a similar option would be available to Israelis if it came to that - which it very well may sooner or later. There's nothing guaranteeing Israel can survive, and if Israel ever loses what happened to Israelis on October 7th will look like peanuts.
  - runarberg 3y ago
    > If Germany called them in like they did the Syrians > Hamas may shoot people even for leaving bombed areas Citing unsubstantiated rumors and conspiracy theories may indicate that you are not arguing in good faith. But I want to address your main talking point and clear what seems to be a misunderstanding on your part. Many—if not most—Gazans do want to flee the war zone. They do want to seek shelter in a safe harbor where their safety is guaranteed. Many Gazans have family ties to refugees which have established them selves around the world, particularly in Europe, Canada and the USA. Currently they need to go through some bureaucracy to establish legitimacy (you can imagine how hard that is while bombs are dropping around you), then they need to flee south to Rafah (again through an active war zone, so pretty dangerous), and finally they need to bribe an Egyptian border guard. Before the war the bribe would cost somewhere between 2,000 - 3,000 € but could go as high as 10,000 €. I think today it is a bit cheaper but still in the order of hundreds to thousands of euros. People are doing this because they are desperate. They are hungry and they are afraid, they want to go to a place where they can sleep a full night and have a warm meal at least once a day. A non-existing theoretical camp city on the Sinai peninsula proposed by the very same people who are bombing their houses, that does not sound like such a place. If your aim is to find a safe harbor, then Egypt is not a reliable option (for most people; I’m sure there are some who have family or friends in Egypt willing to offer shelter). Finally if you are a refugee, particularly if years pass before it is safe for you to return, it is highly likely that you establish a new life in your shelter and find a new community around it. You still have friends and family back home—and yes, you do call it home—which you would like to visit on occasion, but you may still want to keep your current life where you found the shelter. Any immigrant will tell you—refugee or not—that home is relative, and you can find a new home in a new location, while still seeing your old place as your home.
    - weatherlite 3y ago
      Are you arguing in good faith ? Do you have any facts that Hamas is not doing that ? There are quite a few accounts I've read that say this. Fighting from within civilian areas is a core strategy of Hamas, and yes I've read Hamas would hold people at gunpoint to stay where they are and not flee. All your second paragraph - we're actually agreeing and not arguing. It's way too difficult for Gazans to leave, that's why it's not happening in big numbers. That and Hamas violently preventing it now.

johnnyworker 3y ago

This part isn't optional: > given the history of the Nakba where Palestinians were ethnically cleansed from big parts of historic Palestine Being occupied, mistreated, droven away so that one "wants" to leave is all the same as being outright murdered: ethnic cleansing and genocide. You're essentially asking "but are you sure they know it's genocide, too? Are you sure they mind", and the answer is "it doesn't matter".

weatherlite 3y ago
I'm not sure what you're talking about, this is not what I asked. The Nakba doesn't explain much, it was 75 years ago and it seems ludicrous to me people would definitely stay somewhere because of stuff that happened 75 years ago. Maybe some of them prefer Canada or Germany or Dubai, that doesn't sound crazy to me. And for sure some of them would prefer to stay, no matter what even. But we don't know that's the majority - the truth is they are prevented from leaving - first and foremost by Hamas. I thought the West was pro taking in people who live in war zones, and I would hope a similar option would be available to Israelis if it came to that - which it very well may sooner or later. There's nothing guaranteeing Israel can survive, and if Israel ever loses what happened to Israelis on October 7th will look like peanuts.
- runarberg 3y ago
  > If Germany called them in like they did the Syrians > Hamas may shoot people even for leaving bombed areas Citing unsubstantiated rumors and conspiracy theories may indicate that you are not arguing in good faith. But I want to address your main talking point and clear what seems to be a misunderstanding on your part. Many—if not most—Gazans do want to flee the war zone. They do want to seek shelter in a safe harbor where their safety is guaranteed. Many Gazans have family ties to refugees which have established them selves around the world, particularly in Europe, Canada and the USA. Currently they need to go through some bureaucracy to establish legitimacy (you can imagine how hard that is while bombs are dropping around you), then they need to flee south to Rafah (again through an active war zone, so pretty dangerous), and finally they need to bribe an Egyptian border guard. Before the war the bribe would cost somewhere between 2,000 - 3,000 € but could go as high as 10,000 €. I think today it is a bit cheaper but still in the order of hundreds to thousands of euros. People are doing this because they are desperate. They are hungry and they are afraid, they want to go to a place where they can sleep a full night and have a warm meal at least once a day. A non-existing theoretical camp city on the Sinai peninsula proposed by the very same people who are bombing their houses, that does not sound like such a place. If your aim is to find a safe harbor, then Egypt is not a reliable option (for most people; I’m sure there are some who have family or friends in Egypt willing to offer shelter). Finally if you are a refugee, particularly if years pass before it is safe for you to return, it is highly likely that you establish a new life in your shelter and find a new community around it. You still have friends and family back home—and yes, you do call it home—which you would like to visit on occasion, but you may still want to keep your current life where you found the shelter. Any immigrant will tell you—refugee or not—that home is relative, and you can find a new home in a new location, while still seeing your old place as your home.
  - weatherlite 3y ago
    Are you arguing in good faith ? Do you have any facts that Hamas is not doing that ? There are quite a few accounts I've read that say this. Fighting from within civilian areas is a core strategy of Hamas, and yes I've read Hamas would hold people at gunpoint to stay where they are and not flee. All your second paragraph - we're actually agreeing and not arguing. It's way too difficult for Gazans to leave, that's why it's not happening in big numbers. That and Hamas violently preventing it now.