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It's philosophical. It's either turtle all the way down or the axiomatic systems. With axiomatic systems you'll always get things like this, and this is what ke
by anvuong 3y ago
It's philosophical. It's either turtle all the way down or the axiomatic systems. With axiomatic systems you'll always get things like this, and this is what keeps mathematician awake at night.
- theteapot 3y agoIf we can just make up random axioms like this, I think I'd prefer the turtles :).
- H8crilA 3y agoThe shocking part is just how much you can't get away from stupid problems like this. Hilbert believed we could settle these kinds of issues once and for all, the Goedel proved that we can't. So in a sense there isn't anything like "the actual natural numbers without shenanigans", there always are shenanigans.
- naasking 3y agoThere always are shenanigans if you pass a certain threshold of expressive power. Can we do most or all useful /interesting stuff below that threshold though?
- H8crilA 3y agoExcessive power has been proven to be just addition and multiplication over the natural numbers. So - no, we can't.
- naasking 3y agoYes, addition and multiplication over the infinite naturals. I don't think it's obvious that all three of these are needed together for all interesting applications. For instance, various types of finitism eliminate the infinities.