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This is simply not true. Here in Europe it is explicit that subsidies are not paid during negative prices. It can take more than 12h for some thermal plants to

This is simply not true. Here in Europe it is explicit that subsidies are not paid during negative prices. It can take more than 12h for some thermal plants to pick up steam after they have shut down. So it sometimes makes sense to produce and pay in order to regain profits at the following non-negative hours.

konschubert 3y ago
It takes about a minute or two to curtail a solar or a wind power plant - if you’re slow. Negative prices happen because plants are still subsidised during negative price periods. The 4 and 6 hour rules in Germany only apply to newer plants, and many phases of negative prices are shorter than that. France has the 1 hour rule apply to all renewable plants, but there are still subsidies available in the form of time-shiftable origination certificates. But all of this is improving and we are going to see prices go less negative in future.
- hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
  Thank you for being a voice of sanity. The idea that once renewables are fully built out, and grid-scale storage is available and subsidies are no longer needed, that prices will be free or negative makes absolutely no sense.
  - konschubert 3y ago
    Market prices for power will possibly be 0 for some slices of time in the day. After all, the marginal cost of producing power it is 0. But most of the time, prices will be positive since batteries will smooth out demand.
konschubert 3y ago
> Here in Europe it is explicit that subsidies are not paid during negative prices. This may be approximately true for new plants coming online. But existing plants get to keep their old subsidy schemes for a period of N years, at least here in Germany.
limpanz 3y ago
>This is simply not true. Here in Europe it is explicit that subsidies are not paid during negative prices. Well in Europe you can sell guarantee of origins. This drives down opex for a solar plant, at least the plants i manage in my job on the day-ahead market.
- konschubert 3y ago
  It results in a nonzero strike price, yes.

konschubert 3y ago

It takes about a minute or two to curtail a solar or a wind power plant - if you’re slow. Negative prices happen because plants are still subsidised during negative price periods. The 4 and 6 hour rules in Germany only apply to newer plants, and many phases of negative prices are shorter than that. France has the 1 hour rule apply to all renewable plants, but there are still subsidies available in the form of time-shiftable origination certificates. But all of this is improving and we are going to see prices go less negative in future.

hn_throwaway_99 3y ago
Thank you for being a voice of sanity. The idea that once renewables are fully built out, and grid-scale storage is available and subsidies are no longer needed, that prices will be free or negative makes absolutely no sense.
- konschubert 3y ago
  Market prices for power will possibly be 0 for some slices of time in the day. After all, the marginal cost of producing power it is 0. But most of the time, prices will be positive since batteries will smooth out demand.

konschubert 3y ago

> Here in Europe it is explicit that subsidies are not paid during negative prices. This may be approximately true for new plants coming online. But existing plants get to keep their old subsidy schemes for a period of N years, at least here in Germany.

limpanz 3y ago

>This is simply not true. Here in Europe it is explicit that subsidies are not paid during negative prices. Well in Europe you can sell guarantee of origins. This drives down opex for a solar plant, at least the plants i manage in my job on the day-ahead market.

konschubert 3y ago
It results in a nonzero strike price, yes.