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I am struggling to understand what it is you're trying to communicate. The original point is that it's quite clear that motor vehicles can physically operate wi

I am struggling to understand what it is you're trying to communicate. The original point is that it's quite clear that motor vehicles can physically operate without software, and so therefore smart automotive systems should use graceful degradation in order to avoid situations such as in the OP. Are you disagreeing that a motor vehicle can operate without software? Or are you disagreeing that a vehicle should continue to operate when smart features are unavailable?

AlotOfReading 3y ago
My point is that software is essentially required to build the "basic car" they propose, and all software components potentially need updates. There are valid arguments both ways whether they only happen at dealerships or also OTA or some third way, but they need to happen regardless. One example where software is practically required is the backup camera. Would you prefer a series of lenses and mirrors? None of that should be taken to imply that a vehicle should stop operating under any remotely normal circumstances. The situation pictured should not happen to customers.
- Sirizarry 3y ago
  I wasn’t part of the original convo but I also think you’re missing the point. The backup camera is not part of a “basic car” and a series of mirrors is how we’ve backed up and parked for decades before backup cameras were invented. Seriously imagine the most basic car you can imagine. I mean as little to no software as possible. That’s the basic car. Any other addition, anything else that someone might slap into the car, should not affect the basic cars functionality if turned off or otherwise impaired. This is obviously possible and the example of cars are with basic systems not NEEDING an update and still driving fine is evidence of this.
  - AlotOfReading 3y ago
    Perhaps this is a difference of definition, but when I think of "basic car" I understand that to mean the minimum vehicle that can legally operate on the road. Brakes, steering, lights, mirrors, airbags, etc. Backup cameras, AEB, and emissions controls, are all part of that now for better or worse. As far as NHTSA is concerned, backup cameras are just as mandatory as working brakes. You can't build a vehicle that doesn't have them, and most (all?) states prohibit operating vehicles without these features. Tesla, Mercedes, Nissan, Toyota, Honda, and Subaru have all had safety recalls because of issues with software failing to display that image properly. Older vehicles don't comply with these newer regulations and are only allowed to operate because of grandfather clauses.
    - torstenvl 3y ago
      There is no NHTSA standard I'm aware of that requires a vehicle to become inoperable if the backup camera loses functionality. There are no states I'm aware of that require a vehicle to become inoperable if the backup camera loses functionality. Please provide the C.F.R. link or state statute link you're talking about.
      - AlotOfReading 3y ago
        You're missing how FMVSS works. They're all mandatory unless they're one of the listed exemptions to the make inoperative prohibition (part 595) or otherwise stated. States regulate that generally by some variation of "operating an unsafe vehicle" rules, e.g. VC 24002 in CA. Those rules deliberately take a wide view of what unsafe means, but broadly include things that would prevent passing inspections like failing to meet FMVSS. Note that I'm not talking about the actual chance of getting dinged for operating a vehicle this way, because we all know there's effectively no real enforcement here.
        torstenvl 3y ago
        Cali. Veh. Code 24002 does not require a vehicle to become inoperable if the backup camera fails. It does not reference backup cameras at all in the text, and there is no case law to support that interpretation. You have been given plenty of opportunities to make your case and have refused to do so. I think it's pretty clear by now that you're just being disingenuous.
        AlotOfReading 3y ago
        Please enlighten me. What are the vehicle codes that specify which component failures render a vehicle unfit for operation? Let's say something obvious like brakes or lights.
        torstenvl 3y ago
        New York: https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/VAT/T3A9 https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/VAT/T3A9 California: https://casetext.com/statute/california-codes/california-vehicle-code/division-12-equipment-of-vehicles https://casetext.com/statute/california-codes/california-veh... Illinois: Chapter 12 at https://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs3.asp?ActID=1815&ChapterID=49 https://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs3.asp?ActID=1815&C... Michigan: https://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/mcl/pdf/mcl-300-1949-VI-EQUIPMENT.pdf https://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/mcl/pdf/mcl-300-194... Your turn.
  - shiroiuma 3y ago
    You don't need a software-free car (with all the complicated mechanical contraptions this then requires, like carburetors) to have a basic car that doesn't need updates. You just have to write software properly. This has already been done! Cars in the 1980s and 1990s all had ECUs running software, and they never needed updates just to keep the engine running. Later (late 80s and through the 90s) they added ABS brake controllers and SRS airbag controllers, all running software. They didn't need updates either. The idea that computers need software updates is just insane, and clearly fallacious. Cars worked fine without regular software updates for decades.
- torstenvl 3y ago
  > My point is that software is essentially required to build the "basic car" they propose, and all software components potentially need updates. Both of these are obviously false. Automobiles have existed longer than automotive computers, and lots of software continues to function without updates. I suspect you're aware of both facts.

AlotOfReading 3y ago

My point is that software is essentially required to build the "basic car" they propose, and all software components potentially need updates. There are valid arguments both ways whether they only happen at dealerships or also OTA or some third way, but they need to happen regardless. One example where software is practically required is the backup camera. Would you prefer a series of lenses and mirrors? None of that should be taken to imply that a vehicle should stop operating under any remotely normal circumstances. The situation pictured should not happen to customers.

Sirizarry 3y ago
I wasn’t part of the original convo but I also think you’re missing the point. The backup camera is not part of a “basic car” and a series of mirrors is how we’ve backed up and parked for decades before backup cameras were invented. Seriously imagine the most basic car you can imagine. I mean as little to no software as possible. That’s the basic car. Any other addition, anything else that someone might slap into the car, should not affect the basic cars functionality if turned off or otherwise impaired. This is obviously possible and the example of cars are with basic systems not NEEDING an update and still driving fine is evidence of this.
- AlotOfReading 3y ago
  Perhaps this is a difference of definition, but when I think of "basic car" I understand that to mean the minimum vehicle that can legally operate on the road. Brakes, steering, lights, mirrors, airbags, etc. Backup cameras, AEB, and emissions controls, are all part of that now for better or worse. As far as NHTSA is concerned, backup cameras are just as mandatory as working brakes. You can't build a vehicle that doesn't have them, and most (all?) states prohibit operating vehicles without these features. Tesla, Mercedes, Nissan, Toyota, Honda, and Subaru have all had safety recalls because of issues with software failing to display that image properly. Older vehicles don't comply with these newer regulations and are only allowed to operate because of grandfather clauses.
  - torstenvl 3y ago
    There is no NHTSA standard I'm aware of that requires a vehicle to become inoperable if the backup camera loses functionality. There are no states I'm aware of that require a vehicle to become inoperable if the backup camera loses functionality. Please provide the C.F.R. link or state statute link you're talking about.
    - AlotOfReading 3y ago
      You're missing how FMVSS works. They're all mandatory unless they're one of the listed exemptions to the make inoperative prohibition (part 595) or otherwise stated. States regulate that generally by some variation of "operating an unsafe vehicle" rules, e.g. VC 24002 in CA. Those rules deliberately take a wide view of what unsafe means, but broadly include things that would prevent passing inspections like failing to meet FMVSS. Note that I'm not talking about the actual chance of getting dinged for operating a vehicle this way, because we all know there's effectively no real enforcement here.
      - torstenvl 3y ago
        Cali. Veh. Code 24002 does not require a vehicle to become inoperable if the backup camera fails. It does not reference backup cameras at all in the text, and there is no case law to support that interpretation. You have been given plenty of opportunities to make your case and have refused to do so. I think it's pretty clear by now that you're just being disingenuous.
        AlotOfReading 3y ago
        Please enlighten me. What are the vehicle codes that specify which component failures render a vehicle unfit for operation? Let's say something obvious like brakes or lights.
        torstenvl 3y ago
        New York: https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/VAT/T3A9 https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/laws/VAT/T3A9 California: https://casetext.com/statute/california-codes/california-vehicle-code/division-12-equipment-of-vehicles https://casetext.com/statute/california-codes/california-veh... Illinois: Chapter 12 at https://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs3.asp?ActID=1815&ChapterID=49 https://www.ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs3.asp?ActID=1815&C... Michigan: https://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/mcl/pdf/mcl-300-1949-VI-EQUIPMENT.pdf https://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/mcl/pdf/mcl-300-194... Your turn.
- shiroiuma 3y ago
  You don't need a software-free car (with all the complicated mechanical contraptions this then requires, like carburetors) to have a basic car that doesn't need updates. You just have to write software properly. This has already been done! Cars in the 1980s and 1990s all had ECUs running software, and they never needed updates just to keep the engine running. Later (late 80s and through the 90s) they added ABS brake controllers and SRS airbag controllers, all running software. They didn't need updates either. The idea that computers need software updates is just insane, and clearly fallacious. Cars worked fine without regular software updates for decades.
torstenvl 3y ago
> My point is that software is essentially required to build the "basic car" they propose, and all software components potentially need updates. Both of these are obviously false. Automobiles have existed longer than automotive computers, and lots of software continues to function without updates. I suspect you're aware of both facts.