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I raise my own animals and eat them, and was also a vegetarian for a big chunk of my life. I have friends visit who have never been around livestock, never thou

by kaikai 3y ago

I raise my own animals and eat them, and was also a vegetarian for a big chunk of my life. I have friends visit who have never been around livestock, never thought too hard about where their meat comes from, and don’t understand how I can kill animals that I also give scritches to and let nap in my lap. For me, midwifing and raising and caring for animals so they have good lives and quick deaths is the better choice. For many people, the weight of the death is too much. That’s why I say there would be more vegetarians, not because I think vegetarianism is morally superior (or inferior!).

000ooo000 3y ago
>For me, midwifing and raising and caring for animals so they have good lives and quick deaths is the better choice Than not eating them at all?
- kaikai 3y ago
  I do need to eat food, and all food comes from somewhere.
  - zoklet-enjoyer 3y ago
    Sounds like you are justifying cannibalism
  - 000ooo000 3y ago
    Not all food comes from killed animals, though
    - kaikai 3y ago
      You are totally correct. I can choose to get my protein all kinds of ways, including from tofu made in a factory, out of soy grown on another continent, on ground that used to be rainforest and fertilized with nitrogen produced at the cost of huge carbon emissions, then shipped across an ocean. I can also choose to get it from an animal I helped birth, that eats blackberry bushes and grass in my pasture with their family until they’re grown, then gets led to some food on the ground and doesn’t even know what hit them. I can choose either, and I’m not going to argue on the internet that one is inherently morally superior to the other. ALL of the things we consume come with costs. Just because they’re hidden in the end product doesn’t make them nonexistent. I also know enough vegans and was a staunch enough vegetarian to know that neither of us is likely to change our minds or even really absorb new information here.
      - ornornor 3y ago
        Most soy grown is to be fed to animals so we can kill them and eat them. If we ate the soy (and other grains) directly, we wouldn’t need to grow anywhere near as much and destroy as much land as we currently do (+ the land required to raise the animals).
      - jraph 3y ago
        > including from tofu made in a factory, out of soy grown on another continent, on ground that used to be rainforest and fertilized with nitrogen produced at the cost of huge carbon emissions, then shipped across an ocean or from tofu made from organic, local soy. Why would you want it to come from another country and produced in horrible ways? Of course one can do anything badly, so let's focus on realistic, proper ways to do things. Unlike raising one's own animals in awesome conditions, which is very costly and basically requires to be a full time job so which most people can't realistically do, I can just drop by the organic shop nearby and buy my organic, local tofu easily enough. Which I do. Around 80% of the soy is produced to feed animals so that argument does not even work. If you eat meat, you are probably actually doing both at the same time and probably indirectly consume a lot more soy than a vegetarian. I see that you actually raise your own animals in other comments, so maybe not you, and congrats, but your situation does not generalize well.
        000ooo000 3y ago
        >or from tofu made from organic, local soy. Why would you want it to come from another country and produced in horrible ways It's a strawman
        jraph 3y ago
        [edit: oh, you meant the parent comment is a strawman?] Why? The parent comment says that you can choose to eat "proteins" in any way possible, from eating horrible soy to eating meat from animals raised in awesome conditions. I argue that this is not really a useful statement (I want to say, it actually feels misleading and dishonest and that's why I reacted. OP writes about changing one's mind and absorbing new information, a prerequisite of this is to be honest with oneself - the thing that most vegetarian people, who weren't born like this, have already done because they had to to change their minds). I do want to eat properly and that's what we are discussing. I point out that while the average person can realistically buy local, organic soy easily, one can't do so for meat from properly raised animals. Of course I can choose to eat horrible soy (I guess? Not sure where I would find tofu made from it actually), like I can choose to eat horrible meat. But if we are to do things the proper way, neither of these options are good. Though eating horrible meat (which includes the horrible soy!) is the realistic option for meat because that's what scales. (where "horrible meat" means "meat from animals who suffered") The horrible soy is not even worth mentioning because it harms the pro-meat argument. Like, why even mention the horrible soy to the vegetarians? It's laughable.

by kaikai 3y ago

000ooo000 3y ago

>For me, midwifing and raising and caring for animals so they have good lives and quick deaths is the better choice Than not eating them at all?

kaikai 3y ago
I do need to eat food, and all food comes from somewhere.
- zoklet-enjoyer 3y ago
  Sounds like you are justifying cannibalism
- 000ooo000 3y ago
  Not all food comes from killed animals, though
  - kaikai 3y ago
    You are totally correct. I can choose to get my protein all kinds of ways, including from tofu made in a factory, out of soy grown on another continent, on ground that used to be rainforest and fertilized with nitrogen produced at the cost of huge carbon emissions, then shipped across an ocean. I can also choose to get it from an animal I helped birth, that eats blackberry bushes and grass in my pasture with their family until they’re grown, then gets led to some food on the ground and doesn’t even know what hit them. I can choose either, and I’m not going to argue on the internet that one is inherently morally superior to the other. ALL of the things we consume come with costs. Just because they’re hidden in the end product doesn’t make them nonexistent. I also know enough vegans and was a staunch enough vegetarian to know that neither of us is likely to change our minds or even really absorb new information here.
    - ornornor 3y ago
      Most soy grown is to be fed to animals so we can kill them and eat them. If we ate the soy (and other grains) directly, we wouldn’t need to grow anywhere near as much and destroy as much land as we currently do (+ the land required to raise the animals).
    - jraph 3y ago
      > including from tofu made in a factory, out of soy grown on another continent, on ground that used to be rainforest and fertilized with nitrogen produced at the cost of huge carbon emissions, then shipped across an ocean or from tofu made from organic, local soy. Why would you want it to come from another country and produced in horrible ways? Of course one can do anything badly, so let's focus on realistic, proper ways to do things. Unlike raising one's own animals in awesome conditions, which is very costly and basically requires to be a full time job so which most people can't realistically do, I can just drop by the organic shop nearby and buy my organic, local tofu easily enough. Which I do. Around 80% of the soy is produced to feed animals so that argument does not even work. If you eat meat, you are probably actually doing both at the same time and probably indirectly consume a lot more soy than a vegetarian. I see that you actually raise your own animals in other comments, so maybe not you, and congrats, but your situation does not generalize well.
      - 000ooo000 3y ago
        >or from tofu made from organic, local soy. Why would you want it to come from another country and produced in horrible ways It's a strawman
        jraph 3y ago
        [edit: oh, you meant the parent comment is a strawman?] Why? The parent comment says that you can choose to eat "proteins" in any way possible, from eating horrible soy to eating meat from animals raised in awesome conditions. I argue that this is not really a useful statement (I want to say, it actually feels misleading and dishonest and that's why I reacted. OP writes about changing one's mind and absorbing new information, a prerequisite of this is to be honest with oneself - the thing that most vegetarian people, who weren't born like this, have already done because they had to to change their minds). I do want to eat properly and that's what we are discussing. I point out that while the average person can realistically buy local, organic soy easily, one can't do so for meat from properly raised animals. Of course I can choose to eat horrible soy (I guess? Not sure where I would find tofu made from it actually), like I can choose to eat horrible meat. But if we are to do things the proper way, neither of these options are good. Though eating horrible meat (which includes the horrible soy!) is the realistic option for meat because that's what scales. (where "horrible meat" means "meat from animals who suffered") The horrible soy is not even worth mentioning because it harms the pro-meat argument. Like, why even mention the horrible soy to the vegetarians? It's laughable.