6 ms·

Every time there's an article posted somewhere stating the obvious (as the original post does), there's always someone in the comments referring to non-humans a

Every time there's an article posted somewhere stating the obvious (as the original post does), there's always someone in the comments referring to non-humans as if they are objects, insisting that of course it is okay to breed various animals into existence to exploit someone for life and then hang them by a hook when they're no longer useful, and slit their throats or shoot them or to dismember them alive (as is documented). "Of course cows are treated well!", nevermind their children being taken away from them and slaughtered in childhood—love for your children must just be a human thing. Nevermind that the majority of cows, hundreds of millions of them, exist in factory farms. No, you should continue to eat flesh because "we treat them well in ranches". Incredibly depraved behaviour that history will not look kindly upon. It should, and does, make anyone with a conscience nauseous and sick.

EGreg 3y ago
If cows were raised like they were throughout history - free range instead of in factory farms, and calves sharing closeness and the milk - would you have the same objection to them being slaughtered at some point later without much suffering?
- archon1410 3y ago
  Perhaps such a system did exist somewhere in some bygone era—maybe in ancient India where milk was common but where cows or calves were never intentionally killed, and skin and carrion was sometimes taken from the corpse. I think most people would consider that non-objectionable—as did most ancient Jains, Buddhist, and Hindus, who believed in ahimsa. But such a system does not, and probably can not, exist at any significant scale in the modern era. And while instant death is sometimes preferable to a "natural death"—I doubt those interested in "harvesting" the corpse would ever have any incentive to care about whether the death was "without much suffering".
  - kaikai 3y ago
    > I doubt those interested in "harvesting" the corpse would ever have any incentive to care about whether the death was "without much suffering". I am. I work really hard to make sure my animals have the best death I can possibly give them. There’s horrific things happening in industrial meat production, no argument. That doesn’t mean that everyone who raises meat animals is uncaring.
  - theultdev 3y ago
    No it does exist, today. A large portion of cows do roam free in pastures in the US. They are only processed several days before where they are fed a large sum of grain in those crowded cages you see.
kaikai 3y ago
My feeling is not that killing is morally justified by their lack of intelligence, but that there is no purely ethical choice in food besides starving to death. Even veganism necessitates environmental destruction, exploited labor, and other externalities under industrial farming. Anyone that’s harvested a grain field knows that a vegetarian diet is not free from costing animal lives just because it doesn’t include animal protein. I give my animals the best life and the best death that I can. I hugely value getting significant calories from the sun to my mouth, without environmental destruction /global shipping/slavery/preservatives/etc.
- kaikai 3y ago
  Adding just so it’s explicit: modern factory farming is morally abhorrent. Yes, the abuses are well-documented and disgusting, and there is no argument in my mind that can ever justify that level of treatment for any conscious being.
- archon1410 3y ago
  That there are deaths during crop harvesting does not mean that one should then feed those crops to other animals and then kill them for flesh too—instead of growing and eating something human edible. The vast majority of animals killed for their flesh are fed grains and various other harvested crops. I of course don't know what you specifically are doing—but if it somehow does result in lesser suffering, it is remotely not the norm.
  - kaikai 3y ago
    Your original point was that breeding animals and shooting them was incredibly depraved behavior that should make anyone with a conscience sick. I don’t agree- I think there are ways that raising animals for meat can be an ethical choice. I offered up my own experience of living closely with my animals, relating to them with respect while still using them for meat and fiber. We are in agreement on the horrors of modern industrial farming. I’m not making any kind of argument in support of factory farming, because I DO find it morally abhorrent. I hoped by sharing my own experience with my animals, I could add some nuance to the conversation. I now see that that’s unlikely.
RcouF1uZ4gsC 3y ago
> Incredibly depraved behaviour that history will not look kindly upon. It should, and does, make anyone with a conscience nauseous and sick. Are you also upset by lions, hyenas, etc eating animals alive and often targeting calves since they are easier to catch?

EGreg 3y ago

If cows were raised like they were throughout history - free range instead of in factory farms, and calves sharing closeness and the milk - would you have the same objection to them being slaughtered at some point later without much suffering?

archon1410 3y ago
Perhaps such a system did exist somewhere in some bygone era—maybe in ancient India where milk was common but where cows or calves were never intentionally killed, and skin and carrion was sometimes taken from the corpse. I think most people would consider that non-objectionable—as did most ancient Jains, Buddhist, and Hindus, who believed in ahimsa. But such a system does not, and probably can not, exist at any significant scale in the modern era. And while instant death is sometimes preferable to a "natural death"—I doubt those interested in "harvesting" the corpse would ever have any incentive to care about whether the death was "without much suffering".
- kaikai 3y ago
  > I doubt those interested in "harvesting" the corpse would ever have any incentive to care about whether the death was "without much suffering". I am. I work really hard to make sure my animals have the best death I can possibly give them. There’s horrific things happening in industrial meat production, no argument. That doesn’t mean that everyone who raises meat animals is uncaring.
- theultdev 3y ago
  No it does exist, today. A large portion of cows do roam free in pastures in the US. They are only processed several days before where they are fed a large sum of grain in those crowded cages you see.

kaikai 3y ago

My feeling is not that killing is morally justified by their lack of intelligence, but that there is no purely ethical choice in food besides starving to death. Even veganism necessitates environmental destruction, exploited labor, and other externalities under industrial farming. Anyone that’s harvested a grain field knows that a vegetarian diet is not free from costing animal lives just because it doesn’t include animal protein. I give my animals the best life and the best death that I can. I hugely value getting significant calories from the sun to my mouth, without environmental destruction /global shipping/slavery/preservatives/etc.

kaikai 3y ago
Adding just so it’s explicit: modern factory farming is morally abhorrent. Yes, the abuses are well-documented and disgusting, and there is no argument in my mind that can ever justify that level of treatment for any conscious being.
archon1410 3y ago
That there are deaths during crop harvesting does not mean that one should then feed those crops to other animals and then kill them for flesh too—instead of growing and eating something human edible. The vast majority of animals killed for their flesh are fed grains and various other harvested crops. I of course don't know what you specifically are doing—but if it somehow does result in lesser suffering, it is remotely not the norm.
- kaikai 3y ago
  Your original point was that breeding animals and shooting them was incredibly depraved behavior that should make anyone with a conscience sick. I don’t agree- I think there are ways that raising animals for meat can be an ethical choice. I offered up my own experience of living closely with my animals, relating to them with respect while still using them for meat and fiber. We are in agreement on the horrors of modern industrial farming. I’m not making any kind of argument in support of factory farming, because I DO find it morally abhorrent. I hoped by sharing my own experience with my animals, I could add some nuance to the conversation. I now see that that’s unlikely.

RcouF1uZ4gsC 3y ago

> Incredibly depraved behaviour that history will not look kindly upon. It should, and does, make anyone with a conscience nauseous and sick. Are you also upset by lions, hyenas, etc eating animals alive and often targeting calves since they are easier to catch?